Morality or When is a Superhero not a Superhero?

[Tuxboy]

Split from Abilities thread...

Hey! A cool plot idea - Mr Evil successfully is able to dominate the planet, but Captain Good unleashes Armageddon, killing everyone on the planet and freeing them to experience the same freedom and the Captain does. ;)

I think you've just turned Captain Good into a supervillain, chief.  That's classic twisted villainthink right there.

You would think so, BUT if Captain Good *knows* death is not a limitation or end (because he *is* dead) then death becomes a way to free all those enslaved by Mr. Evil.  It's ironic, but given the premise, it makes sense.

And yet, it's just the sort of goal that the other heroes would band together to stop - if they are worthy of the title, that is.

You would think so, BUT if Captain Good *knows* death is not a limitation or end (because he *is* dead) then death becomes a way to free all those enslaved by Mr. Evil.  It's ironic, but given the premise, it makes sense.

And yet, it's just the sort of goal that the other heroes would band together to stop - if they are worthy of the title, that is.

That's assuming the other heroes aren't that bright - but if they are, they themselves may join the Captain to better fight Mr. Evil.

*L* But he still just murdered the entire planet, it doesn't matter what his justification was, I'm sure the majority of murderers have justified their reasons to themselves,  To deprive the whole population of their freedom to choose and to live means he is still a mass-murdering supervillain in the mould of Galactus or Darkseid.

It is so hysterically funny to see you try and defend it as a heroic action...now that is irony *LOL*

will try to briefly explain this quick and simply.

The Captain has died.
The Captain still exists.  He still can have an effect on the world - more than he could when limited by having a human body.  He can even *take* a body when he wishes, for a while.

So the Captain know death is not death - therefore murder is not murder.

If Mr Evil incarcerates all the good people across the planet, how is the Captain's releasing them form their mortal shell in any way bad?  Thay are still here, can do eveything they could, and much more.

*LOL* Seriously?!?! *LOL*

Death is still death, it doesn't matter whether there is a new life after death that Captain "Good" thinks is better or not. He snuffed out the lives of every living thing on the planet without their consent because he thinks knows what is better for them. That makes him a megolomanical mass-murderer no matter what his reasons.

murder (n.)

   1. The unlawful killing of one human by another

By definition a murderer and thoroughly evil by act if not intent *G*

Captain Good: But it is better than living under the tyranny of Mr. Evil
The population of the world: Hey that is our decision not yours, you killed us.
Captian Good: But its better this way.
TPotW: Says you! Did you ask us? We were about to rise up and overthrow him with help from the real heroes.
Captain Good: But look you are so much better off.
TPotW: He's a psycho!!! Come on let's get him, Hold him down so Mr Evil can pummel him.

Besides...from a purely mechanics stand point the Comics Code would force Captain Good to Gloat rather than destroy the world...clue: if the Comics Code causes Gloating it really isn't an heroic action.

Oh man I really hope you are being funny because I don't see how destroying an entire planet can be seen as morally defensible let alone be portrayed as an Heroic act. Thanks for injected some humour into an otherwise dull day *wanders off chuckling*

[TonyLB]

In one of my convention games, one of the heroes in the group was a space-faring shape-shifting amoeboid thing.

The player decided that the character had come to Earth to free them of the burden of individuality, by making all minds part of an undifferentiate organic/mental soup.  There was some natural opposition to this plan, but he was determined, because by all that is Just and Right he knew that his way was better.

My absolute favorite line?  "You haven't even tried being monomolecular ooze!  How can you say you won't like it before you even try it?"

[Tuxboy]

"You haven't even tried being monomolecular ooze!  How can you say you won't like it before you even try it?"

*ROFL*

Yeah but at least he discussed it with them first ;)

[Ben Lehman]

I think that this is a fascinating story and I'm glad that Capes lets us explore it.

Basically, it's the issue of colonialism.  "I know what's good for you!  And I'm more powerful!  So you're goint to take it!"

Is that good or bad?  This isn't just an idle thing about guys in tights.  This is hugely important to the modern political scene.

yrs--
--Ben

[Hans]

Besides...from a purely mechanics stand point the Comics Code would force Captain Good to Gloat rather than destroy the world...clue: if the Comics Code causes Gloating it really isn't an heroic action.

I just wanted to point out this is not completely true.  For example, under the '50's style code, the following conflicts would, I think, be gloatable by heroes but would be considered heroic action:

* Goal: Spiderman reveals his secret identity in order to save the hostages
* Goal: Time traveller uses super-science to make child Adolf Hitler a nice person.
* Goal: Reed Richards finds a cure for the AIDS crisis in Africa.

Gloatable things aren't necessarily good or bad from a moral or ethical perspective, they are simply things that the group agrees would be bad to happen from a narrative perspective.

On the whole "killing the planet; heroic act?" question, it depends a lot on the genre of stories you are shooting for.  Its not a question of whether in real life it would be a good or a bad thing to do; I hope that everyone reading this could agree with the people piling on Captain Good in Tuxboy's dialogue if someone said that.  But we aren't talking real-life, we are talking fantasy...

If its typical four-colour comics (say, Lee/Kirby), then it sounds like classic supervillain stuff.  In fact, the whole "death is my gift to you" schtick sounds so familiar to me that I think it WAS the concept behind some classic supervillain.  Its not to far from the High Evolutionary's thing of "evolving" humanity for its own good, and it is in the same neighborhood as Judge Death's whole "life is the crime, death is the cure" thing from Judge Dredd/2000 A.D.  There were certainly other supervillains who plotted other very drastic actions "for humanities own good."   

But if it's Grant Morrison or Neil Gaiman you are shooting for, who knows?  Those writers and their peers love to pull the rug out from under the reader and comletely twist their perceptions.  I could just see one of them writing a storyline between Captain Good and Major Evil, where Captain Good tries to kill everyone in the world, "to usher them into the Paradise Alignment" or similar.  Major Evil destroys him, and then finds out that, hey, you know what, Captain Good was RIGHT!  There was some kind of strange cosmic alignment, and if all of humanity had died, all would have ascended to some obviously higher plane of paradise.  It was an all or nothing proposition, though; either the whole planet went or none did, and, guess what, too late now, the chance doesn't come around for another million or so years.  It would have made a great plotline for Morrison's Doom Patrol.  Actually, it bears some similaritities to the Korvac Saga, from the Avengers, at least if you believe that Moondragon was right about Korvac.

[Sindyr]

You guys...

(lol)

ok, fine, let me change the words...

Mr Evil incarcerates all the good people on the planet.

Captain Good shouts so all the people on the planet can hear:
"I have been transformed and now am not subject to the limits of physicality - though I am able to incorporate or discorporate at will.  This gift is available to any and all who want freedom from Mr. Evil and his jail cells. Simply think the word *blingargo* and you shall be ascended to this higher form"

...which is functionally equivalent to what I said before, but is now wrapped up in pretty paper so that now it may not trigger whatever bugaboo got triggered before.

Let's review...
Mr Evil = incarcerates the Good = infringer = villain.
Captain Good = frees the wrongfully incarcerated = rescuer = hero

Any have a problem NOW?

[chuckle]

[Matthew Glover]

I don't think that's exactly "functionally equivalent."

In Scenario A (reading as I believe Tuxboy intended), the Captain kills everyone on earth because he believes people will be better off dead.  Your original phrasing was, after all, "Captain Good unleashes Armageddon, killing everyone on the planet".

In Scenario B (reading as I believe you intended) , the Captain reveals to everyone that they have the power to ascend to a higher plane and gives them the choice.

[Sindyr]

OK, then consider it amended:

instead of dead, read "ascended"

and the hero will ask "can I please free you from your cell by given you powers beyond your wildest dreams" - although in most superhero the hero does not ask before he busts down the door...

Actually, I can't remember a single time a hero has asked permission to rescue someone before doing so.

[chucklex2]

[TonyLB]

Well, cool ... so that's not what Sindyr meant.  I still think it's a fascinating subject to discuss.

My take on it is that many of the best supervillains believe that they're superheroes.  Magneto, obviously.  Doctor Doom feels that the world would be better off under his rulership, and certainly the spectacularly well run (if oppressive) kingdom of Latveria makes it hard to say that he doesn't have a point.

So how's that for a good way to make up a really spankin' supervillain:  Take a superhero, and then push him that extra bit beyond sane virtue and into the world of megalomania?

I mean ... the Justice League (comics and television) has done this more often than I can conveniently count.  Seems like a pretty good formula, and one well worth paying attention to.

[Tuxboy]

OK, then consider it amended:

K, we'll just put it down to a faulty example *L*

My take on it is that many of the best supervillains believe that they're superheroes.  Magneto, obviously.  Doctor Doom feels that the world would be better off under his rulership, and certainly the spectacularly well run (if oppressive) kingdom of Latveria makes it hard to say that he doesn't have a point.

So how's that for a good way to make up a really spankin' supervillain:  Take a superhero, and then push him that extra bit beyond sane virtue and into the world of megalomania?

I mean ... the Justice League (comics and television) has done this more often than I can conveniently count.  Seems like a pretty good formula, and one well worth paying attention to.

Exactly...this is my preferred style of play, in fact I don't think I've created a single hero that didn't have a decent mix of supposedly villainous drives with the heroic, it creates a much more interesting individual...nothing like an Obsession or Pride Exemplar on a "hero" to attract those resources ;)

And the "good guy" gone "bad" is always fun to play with...especially if the rest of the group don't see it coming..."He did WHAT?!?!"

I have found that playing with the concept "The End justifies the Means" always produces interesting situations and storylines, the conflict between the opposing sides becomes increasingly blurred as each side is pushed further and further...

Now that's my idea of fun ;)

[TonyLB]

And the "good guy" gone "bad" is always fun to play with...especially if the rest of the group don't see it coming..."He did WHAT?!?!"

Also especially if the rest of the group did see it coming.  "This is why I kept this chunk of Kryptonite in a lead vault all these years.  I'd hoped I would never need to use it, but even back then ... there were worrying signs."

[Tuxboy]

This is why I kept this chunk of Kryptonite in a lead vault all these years.  I'd hoped I would never need to use it, but even back then ... there were worrying signs."

Ah the old Batman gambit "Someone as tightly wound as Clark is gonna snap at some point." ;)

[Ben Lehman]

I had enormous fun with a comic opposite version of this at the DexCon game I played with Tony -- playing a character with all heroic drives who was nonetheless infused with *evil*

yrs--
--Ben

[Tuxboy]

"This is why I kept this chunk of Kryptonite in a lead vault all these years.  I'd hoped I would never need to use it, but even back then ... there were worrying signs."

Though this does make you wonder just how unstable Supes was that Batman, of all people, thought he'd snap...*shudders*

[Matthew Glover]

Are you kidding?  Batman thinks everybody will snap.  He's utterly paranoid, so he has contingency plans for anybody who might possibly someday maybe become a threat.