Heroquest purchase question

[Joel P. Shempert]

Hi,

I'm strongly considering purchasing Heroquest in the very near future. However, I am planning on using it to run a game set in Middle Earth, and was wondering:

1) how easy is it to adapt to non-Gloranthan play, in terms of book layout? In other words, I know I'll have homework to do in terms of alternate Keyword lists and such, but will I have a hard time sifting through the game text for non-setting rules, or is it no biggie?

2) Someone around the Forge said there was a non-setting-specific version of Heroquest in the works. Does that mean an actual published edition, which will be available for purchase soon? And would it be a smart bet to wait for that, or would (I guess this is really just question 1 again) I be just fine getting the current version?

Thanks,

[Paul King]

Unless you're adapting the magic rules I tink that you will find it fairly easy to split out the Gloranthan material

QuestWorlds - the generic HQ game - is in the works but not expected out soon.  So far as I know it is still in playtest.

[droog]

I quite like doing conversions on HQ. If you'd like a hand doing your ME thing, PM me.

This is where to find the game aids and other downloads for HQ.

This is somebody's conversion.

This is a thread on RPG.net with the above link and some discussion.

[Mike Holmes]

Hard for me to give advice on whether to wait for QuestWorlds, since I'm on the project, but not supposed to talk about when I think it'll come out. Would be somewhat speculative on my part anyhow.

So what I'll say is this. I've converted heroquest to Shadow World, which was ICEs world that actually was created from the remains of their Middle Earth project after the license was taken from them. I won't say that it hasn't taken some effort, but, as I've said before, the effort is actually pretty interesting, IMO. Further, you have the examples given above to start from, you can check out what I've done, and there are also some conversions for the Midnight setting here on this forum you can look up. So you'd have a ton of guidance available, and work done for you already.

So I'd say that there's no real reason to wait. The Gloranthan examples, in any case, are quite informative and fun. You can probably steal some parts wholesale from that. So I wouldn't bother waiting for QW to come out. You'll probably do just fine with HQ.

Anyhow, that all said, I will say this... and people might think me a heretic for saying this. Middle Earth is not quite magical enough for HQ. That is, how closely do you want to emulate Middle Earth? If you want an accurate emulation, HQ can do it, but it's overkill in some ways. Basically HQ shines when you have many gods, nay, many entire religions to play off each other. Middle Earth is, quite intentionally, the story of the heroes of one particular religion of Middle Earth. And that one religion, being a parallel to Christianity really, is seen mostly only in generic Judeo-Christian values, and not much in terms of the religion itself.

Put it this way, in Hero Quest, the system assumes that everyone knows magic. In Middle Earth, there aren't even priests or anybody doing blessings much less magic. There are few sources of magic in the Middle Earth stories, one being the subtle magic of the elves, who have magic because they've seen the West (heaven). Another being the Wizards, who, it turns out, are demigods. No different from Sauron in origin (all Maiar, to be technical). Another is folks touched by the Maiar like Wormtongue, the Witch King, and the Mouth of Sauron.

Basically men in Middle Earth just don't have magic. Even elven magic is limited to being able to make magical things, and talking to the spirits of the world (summoning the river, for instance).

So...you're left with one of two options that aren't optimal. First, you can play in Middle Earth doing what HQ presents, having all sorts of magic, in which case you have the same problem that everyone always had playing Rolemaster in Middle Earth. Which is to wonder what the heck an "illusionist" was doing traipsing about the landscape, completely out of touch with the feel of the Middle Earth setting. Or you end up trying to heavily tone down the magic rules, in which case Hero Quest loses quite a lot of it's feel.

Note how the above linked to conversion never got around to doing magic keywords? There's a reason for that.


I say this, however, noting that I don't think that there's any better system for doing Middle Earth to date, just that all systems that have been used for it fail it pretty badly from what I've seen. I don't say that simply because I hold Middle Earth in high regard (I do, but that's not why), but because Middle Earth is very specific, and has specific demands, unless you're going to just treat it as just another map with place names on it.

I guess I'm saying that I think that playing in Middle Earth is largely a bad idea at this point (I have several other problems with the idea, actually). If you have to play in it, then yeah, HQ is one of the best systems you can use for it. But why not play in Glorantha, or some other fantasy world where you can really leverage off what heroquest has to offer?

Middle Earth is a great world to read about, but I can't stand playing in it. I think that actually creating your own setting, if you don't have another fantasy setting to rely on (I really want to see a Forgotten Realms adaptation), is actually better than using Middle Earth. And I'd help you with that, if you go that way.

Ah, who am I kidding. If you do a Middle Earth conversion, I'll probably add my two cents in as well, if you're interested. But consider the alternatives.

Mike

[Joel P. Shempert]

Well, depending on how what they're like I probably WILL be wanting to mod the magic rules to some degree. But if it's easy to sort out overall then I probably won't sweat it. And if Questworlds is gonna be awhile I think I'll be happy to buy the regular Heroquest book post haste. I'm itching to check it out. (and hey, who says I won't want to play in Glorantha at some point?)

Droog, I'd be happy to accept any and all help in modding HG for ME. Lamorak has also offered to chip in, it'd be cool to collaborate. I'd need to read the HQ rules before I participate, though.

Mike, I'll keep all that in mind, it's a lot to think about. Thing is, I do have a particular bug in my britches to run a Middle Earth game, advisability of such an endeavor aside, and so at this point at least, I'm going to retain that goal. I DO want to retain a particular feel for Middle Earth, which is why I've been very meticulously weighing different systems to try and do that. As for the magic, for sure the hardest aspect to get "right" for ME roleplaying, I'll probably have more of an opinion once I read the HQ rules. At this point, the one thing that IS clear to me is that I AM buying Heroquest, so, thread successful!

Thanks, everyone!

[Lamorak33]

Put it this way, in Hero Quest, the system assumes that everyone knows magic. In Middle Earth, there aren't even priests or anybody doing blessings much less magic. There are few sources of magic in the Middle Earth stories, one being the subtle magic of the elves, who have magic because they've seen the West (heaven). Another being the Wizards, who, it turns out, are demigods. No different from Sauron in origin (all Maiar, to be technical). Another is folks touched by the Maiar like Wormtongue, the Witch King, and the Mouth of Sauron.

Basically men in Middle Earth just don't have magic. Even elven magic is limited to being able to make magical things, and talking to the spirits of the world (summoning the river, for instance).

Hey Mike, we disagree dude! I think your dead wrong. I used to have the MERP books, and there was lots of magic.

Look at the things that Gandalf does, and how readily wizards and magical doings are accepted. Just because the orcs are a no magic race, there is no need to assume that is the norm. The strength with Heroquest is that, instead of having spell lists, you can tailor the magic to suit the need. I mean, for Gamdalf you could rift all his cool powers off 'Power of the Maiar 10W5'

Regards
Rob

[Hobbitboy]

Put it this way, in Hero Quest, the system assumes that everyone knows magic. In Middle Earth, there aren't even priests or anybody doing blessings much less magic. There are few sources of magic in the Middle Earth stories, one being the subtle magic of the elves, who have magic because they've seen the West (heaven). Another being the Wizards, who, it turns out, are demigods. No different from Sauron in origin (all Maiar, to be technical). Another is folks touched by the Maiar like Wormtongue, the Witch King, and the Mouth of Sauron.

Basically men in Middle Earth just don't have magic. Even elven magic is limited to being able to make magical things, and talking to the spirits of the world (summoning the river, for instance).

Hey Mike, we disagree dude! I think your dead wrong. I used to have the MERP books, and there was lots of magic.

Look at the things that Gandalf does, and how readily wizards and magical doings are accepted. Just because the orcs are a no magic race, there is no need to assume that is the norm. The strength with Heroquest is that, instead of having spell lists, you can tailor the magic to suit the need. I mean, for Gamdalf you could rift all his cool powers off 'Power of the Maiar 10W5'

Only if you accept works written by third parties as being part of the 'world of Middle Earth'. J.R.R. Tolkien is very clear (in documents that weren't published until after his death) about the nature of 'magic' in his world and which types of being could use it.

Basically it boiled down to two 'types'...

Power: Only the Valar, the Maiar, and later, those elves who went to Valinor had the 'power' create magic. How Power is manifested and what it can do seems to vary considerably with the individual. Various descendents of powerful individuals also seem to have inherited this ability but it doesn't seem to be teachable unless the student already had the same potential.

Lore: The ability craft minor* magic items and/or cast minor* spells. Lore is incredably varied and no one one seems to know it all (or even most of it). Dwarves always seem to have had this. Elves either were taught it in Valinor or always had it but got much more in Valinor. Men don't have it except for the Edain who seem to have been taught it by the Elves but even this seems to have pretty much died out. Individuals, however, do seem to be able to learn it (Mouth of Sauron) or figure it out for themselves (Witch King) but this seems to be particularly rare.

* Well, 'minor' in relation to what could be achieved with Power.

Note that if you limit yourself to the writings of Tolkien workable magic is either limited to a few species, in the hands od a few (very few) powerful individuals, or lost in the past. In any case most of it is not in a form that modern roleplaying gamers would appreciate.

Thanks,

- John

[Mike Holmes]

Well said, John.

MERP is exactly indicative of the problem. I played the heck out of the ICE stuff, in fact using full Rolemaster. Which only exacerbated the problem. I find the write-ups from ICE to be somewhat hilarious in that, if an object or something is mentioned anywhere in Tolkien, they came up with a write-up for it, and all objects were considered magical. I'm not exaggerating in the least. This may have been policy for all I know.

The point is that playing in Middle Earth with this sort of interpretation creates a feel in play that's far more World of Greyhawk, than it is Middle Earth.

Yes, Gandalf's powers can be done well in HQ. Again, I've said that HQ is the best game for Middle Earth. It's just that I'm not seeing players doing heroquests in Middle Earth, or having religion keywords, etc. Middle Earth is a set of myths that Tolkien gave us to have as our own otherworld, if you will. Not like Glorantha, which is a world it's own with it's own myths.

Mike

[Joel P. Shempert]

I'll be really interested to read Heroquest and see what I think of all these issues. Right now I'll just say that while I used to feel about the same as you on the issue (particularly in reaction to MERP, which was my first Fantasy RPG), I've come to believe that there can be more magic floating around than one might think. It may be counter to JRR's intent, but a lot of evidence exists that there could be at least a very, very rare potential for magic among humans. I think just the fact that people in general believe in wizards and conjurors and the like, without knowing that the Istari are Maiar, speaks volumes. This Gandalf dude comes through town, and has a rep as a wizard, and everyone just accepts that. They may have a poor understanding of what wizarding is and does, but theydon't go, "ah, a Wizardm, bah! There's no such thing!" Also, Gandalf mentions that he once knew all the opening-spells in all the tongues lof men and elves. . .so elves have spells, that can be learned and used? I used to have a misconception that the Lord of the Nazgul was a "Witch-King" before he became a wraith, but even though that's wrong, i still think it's telling that everyone thought of him as an iondependent Sorcerer and accepted that explanation. Ditto the Necromancer. If that power could only be wielded by a Maia, or transferred to his servant, then I doubt people (including the White Council) would be scratching their heads for centuries over who the Witch-King and Necromancer could be.

I think Magic would have to be played very subtly, not like ICE's spell-list approach. And humans should be very limited in what they could accomplish, and even what they can do would not be as graceful and effortless as Elves' Art. But I think some alowance for "human Magic" could be made. Just so the landscape doesn't become littered with 9th-level Enchanters and Animists.




aaanyway, I have good news!  I snagged me a copy of HQ! It's on the way even as we speak! Even got a Player's guide, all for a tidy little price. I can't wait!

Peace,

[Mike Holmes]

OK, I just erased a huge post that argues once again why this is a bad idea. But it comes down to this. No RPG system can solve the 9th level Enchanter problem, unless you decide not to have 9th level Enchanters in the setting. Yeah, if you work hard to make the magic keywords correctly with HQ, you'll get something very close to Middle Earth.

At which point my objection simply becomes that Middle Earth is just not fun to play in, in part because of the cultural homogenaity, and in part because it's from a work of fiction. Middle Earth is well presented for Frodo and Aragorn to adventure in. The best you can hope for is to have adventures that mimick theirs - but that's unlikely since they have to have them. Only one person gets to be the ring-bearer, and that job's already assigned. Or will be if you're playing in the past. This is not simply the metaplot problem, either.

Play in a different world, where we don't know what happens, and these problems go away. Heck, I play a game I call Other World where I use HQ without a setting to start, developing it as neccessary to support the story of the characters. Just like Tolkien did. Setting cannot make for good play, only what happens to the characters and their responses can do that. So having a setting that's even a little problematic is, well, pointless to me.


I don't expect that this will convince you. So, if you still plan on going ahead, I'd like to help as an intellectual exercise, and because I think I can help with "getting it right." But I just want people to understand, FWIW, that I'm doing this despite the fact that I don't think it's a good idea - it's just because I'm an incorrigible designer. :-)

I get to do the Dunlendings!

Just kidding.

Mike

[Joel P. Shempert]

Gotcha, and fair enough. Your points are well taken, and the only answer I really have is that I want to try anyway. I guess we'll just see how it goes.

And thanks for your offered help, even with objections. :)

Peace,

[Joel P. Shempert]

I got it! I got it! Huzzah!!

Now just give me some time to digest it, and we'll get rolling with the conversion and stuff.

[simon_hibbs]

Mike is absolutely correct in all his points of fact, but I don't think lots of magic is as vital to fantasy roleplaying as all that.

It occurs to me that adapting HQ to Middle Earth would be much like adapting it to Arthurian Romance. This is clearly possible, as Pendragon has already demonstrated a viable approach to aurthurian roleplaying, so you just need to find an approach to ME that works. My favoured approach would be to run an alternate history game. This has a number of major advantages.

1. You aren't restricted to following the written events.
2. You can play with all the best toys such as Palantir, Rings of power, etc.
3. You ca have the players interact with the main characters freely
4. The new sequence of events allows the introduction of new characters, but PCs and NPCs.

Note that without actualy stating it, this is pretty much what Pendragon does. There are many different verisons of the Arthurian story, and may different ways to interpret the characters. Why not introduce some of that artistic license to your Middle Earth gaming?


Simon Hibbs

[Vaxalon]

I did a short-lived game (not HQ) based on an alternate history where Galadriel took the ring when Frodo offered it to her.

"All Shall Love Me and Despair" was a great game.  Galadriel reshaped the One Ring (and consequently, all of the Rings of Power) into mirrors of various sorts (hand mirrors, pools of water, polished shields, etc) which had various dire effects on those who saw their reflections in them.

[lightcastle]

On the "should you wait for QuestWorlds" issue, I (obviously) agree with all who said "no". I think QuestWorlds will be great when it comes out. But for now, go and get HQ and use it to tinker.

As for ME, the only successful game I ever saw was set in the 4th Age, with remnants of past magics floating around. The GM thus let people use their knowledge of the setting as legend and history, but screwed around with whatever else he wanted to make it playable.