Preventing munchkin behavior

[Green]

I've just finished the most recent incarnation of Dramatikos.  In short, it is an interactive storytelling game.  The players each use action and narration to portray one or more roles. The players weave the each other's words and actions to develop a story meant to entertain everyone.  Dramatikos is meant to be a combination between improv theater and round-robin storytelling.  As the players are both the audience and the creators in the game, the rules are meant to act as a foundation for creating and portraying characters, as well as for deciding what happens next in the story.  My goal is to have play that is a lot like freeform RPing but without the arbitrariness that can happen sans a mechanical base.

Mechanically, I don't provide a lot of checks and balances to prevent people from using the system to completely dominate play.  To what extent should I be concerned about this, and to what extent is that more of a social contract sort of thing?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Unfortunately, there is no way to answer a "should" question like that. You have to decide what the literal experience of play is supposed to be like, and use that as the basis for the rules.

At the moment, you've only stated that there are rules of some kind. What are they like?

Best, Ron

[Green]

Unfortunately, there is no way to answer a "should" question like that. You have to decide what the literal experience of play is supposed to be like, and use that as the basis for the rules.

At the moment, you've only stated that there are rules of some kind. What are they like?

Personally, I'm inclined not to use the game text to enforce etiquette, so I might not worry about it. 

But to answer your second question, the rules use only a single mechanic, called Keys.  Keys are the defining traits of a character.  Each player gets a turn in which they can play Keys to reveal aspects of the character.  Players play Keys by showing the traits each Key represents.  During their turn, players also perform (or narrate) an action, which is something the character does to move the story forward (ie, something the other characters can react to).  How the players do this is limited only by their imagination and the following rules (in a nutshell):

1.  All action takes place in the present tense.  However, there is always room for plot twists, and things aren't always as they seem.
2.  Only the player can control the decisions his character makes.
3.  Equal spotlight time.  Players get around the same amount of time to perform an action.  The length of this time can vary from group to group.
4.  The player who plays the most Keys during his turn decides the outcome of a conflict.

Rules-wise, this is about it.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Sounds like you have it wrapped up. if the scene time is controlled on a minute by minute basis, it will be very hard for a player to dominate a group under those guidelines. Anything else would be a social contract issue in my opinion.

[Filip Luszczyk]

If I understand correctly:

I have, say 2 minutes to "play" my Keys. I have, say, 10 Keys. And I want to win the conflict. In order to do it I have to introduce more Keys than the other side.

So, I'd probably choose Keys that are as easy to introduce in as many situations as possible, and then I'd introduce them with minimum narration. That gives me around 10-12 seconds per Key, so it there won't be too much time to provide interesting colour. And in the next conflict - repeat the same tricks. Is this the kind of behaviour you would like to prevent?

If so, I think you should explain in the rules how the game is supposed to be played and how not. If your game is not about winning, there's no point to prevent such behaviours. If players try to play that way, they actually won't be playing your game anymore. So that's their, not your problem.

But I think the game could use some additional rules. Maybe allow other players to veto narration? Or rule that the same Key cannot be introduced in the same way more than once (or once per some unit of time or unit of play) - in case of repetitive narration, it wouldn't count towards winning the conflict.

[Andrew Cooper]

If the problem you are seeing is that a player could do the "speed talk" thing and introduce all of his Keys in every round in an attempt to win every conflict no matter how tenuous, then I think I have a simple solution for you and then something you could think about.

If you add a simple rule that no Key can be used in consecutive rounds, then the player has incentive not to try using all his Keys.  Sure, if the conflict is really important to him, he'll throw everything and the kitchen sink at it to win... but then the next round he's stuck with no Keys to use and he can't possibly win the conflict there.  I think the result of this rule will be that players will tend to use the minimum number of Keys they think it'll take to win unless the conflict is just uber-important to them.

The other thought to ponder is giving the players an incentive for losing a conflict.  If there is some incentive to lose then the player won't always be interested in winning everything.

[GreatWolf]

From a design perspective, what you're doing here is essentially an auction.  As a fan of Eurogames, I see these all the time.  The key to a good auction are specific constraints and varying valuation of items.  Here's an example, taken from a game called Ra.

Imagine that there are four tiles currently available for auction:  1 of Tile A, 2 of Tile B, and 1 of Destroy Tile C.  The winner of the auction must take all the tiles.  The rules for the auction are a once-around:  in other words, you get one chance to outbid.  High bid wins.  Now, according to the rules, there are different ways to score Tile A, Tile B, and Tile C.  If I don't have any Tile C, then that last tile isn't a negative to me.  However, if you have lots of tiles that depend for scoring on your having Tile C, then you won't want to win this auction.  Unless, of course, getting a Tile A will mean more points to you....

And so on and so on.

As I mentioned before, what you're designing is an auction.  So, what are your constraints?  The only one that you mentioned is time.  Each player has X amount of time to invoke his Keys.  As Filip noted, this constraint is insufficient, as someone could simply rattle off all his Keys and say "I invoke all these."  Saying "That's not how the game should be played" doesn't help, because then how should it be played, and what can the other players point at to say that he is wrong?

What about the varied valuation of items?  You have only one "item" up for auction:  winning the conflict.  As a general rule, this is going to be equally valued by each player, so each round will essentially be the same.  Whoever has the most Keys will win.  Each time.

Certainly, you can limit by Color, but that is hard to enforce, even with explicit rules.  The Challenge mechanism from Universalis addresses this, but that requires having a finite resource to spend.

So, instead, I suggest that you consider both your constraints and your items.  Some ideas:

Are there other constraints to introduce?

Andrew suggested one:  "spending" a Key makes it unavailable for the next round while it refreshes.  As a variation, I could suggest modifying an idea from my own Legends of Alyria:  a used Key cannot refresh until a different player uses it in a conflict against the character.  The concept here is introducing a finite currency into your auction.

What about the auction format?  Currently, it looks like your setup is essentially a "once-around".  Each player gets to contribute to the scene once around the room, and then the conflict is resolved.  But is this the best format?  What about an open-ended auction, going around the room until everyone passes?  Or what about a "dollar auction", where the top bidder wins but the top two pay?

Are there other items to purchase?

What if winning the conflict and narrating were separated?  Imagine if the highest bidder won the conflict but the lowest bidder narrated.  Or, what if the highest bidder got to choose between winning and narrating, and the lowest bidder got the other?  Are there other "items" available?  For example, what if there were meta-items available, like "Gain one Key" or "Refresh Keys"?

In closing, here's a link to an article by Shannon Appelcline about the use of auctions in games:  Strategic Insights:  Auction Games   There may be more there than you really wanted to know, but I think that you'll find it to be a good resource on the sorts of things that I'm talking about.

[Green]

If I understand correctly:

I have, say 2 minutes to "play" my Keys. I have, say, 10 Keys. And I want to win the conflict. In order to do it I have to introduce more Keys than the other side.

So, I'd probably choose Keys that are as easy to introduce in as many situations as possible, and then I'd introduce them with minimum narration. That gives me around 10-12 seconds per Key, so it there won't be too much time to provide interesting colour. And in the next conflict - repeat the same tricks. Is this the kind of behaviour you would like to prevent?

Not really.  On the one hand, it could be munchkin behavior, but I don't want to penalize people for communicating effectively either.  The thing you have to understand is that Keys are all about color.  Conflict is not the focus of the mechanic for Keys.  If there is anything remotely similar to a winner in this game, it's the player who has the most Keys once the story is over.  It's such a minute part of this game that I most likely won't even mention it in the text.

If so, I think you should explain in the rules how the game is supposed to be played and how not. If your game is not about winning, there's no point to prevent such behaviours. If players try to play that way, they actually won't be playing your game anymore. So that's their, not your problem.

That's what I figured.  I just needed someone else to say it.  Thanks.

Or rule that the same Key cannot be introduced in the same way more than once (or once per some unit of time or unit of play) - in case of repetitive narration, it wouldn't count towards winning the conflict.

Strangely enough, I thought I already had a rule like this, but I didn't.  Because the system is very, very light, it's easy to add another level of organization to the game without disrupting the low-impact, freeform-ish aspect that I want to keep in it.  The text that is about that part should read like this:

After the first player takes his turn, the next player who wants to do something is allowed a chance to perform an action.  In order of who wants to go next, each player gets a turn to perform an action.  This may involve playing as many Keys as time and imagination allow, but you should keep the following rules in mind:

(snip rules 1 thru 4)

5.  One Key per scene.  All the players involved in a scene can take as many turns as they need to finish it.  They can play as many Keys as they like and narrate or act out to their hearts' content.  However, a player may only use a specific Key only once each scene.

[Green]

If the problem you are seeing is that a player could do the "speed talk" thing and introduce all of his Keys in every round in an attempt to win every conflict no matter how tenuous, then I think I have a simple solution for you and then something you could think about.

If you add a simple rule that no Key can be used in consecutive rounds, then the player has incentive not to try using all his Keys.  Sure, if the conflict is really important to him, he'll throw everything and the kitchen sink at it to win... but then the next round he's stuck with no Keys to use and he can't possibly win the conflict there.  I think the result of this rule will be that players will tend to use the minimum number of Keys they think it'll take to win unless the conflict is just uber-important to them.

The other thought to ponder is giving the players an incentive for losing a conflict.  If there is some incentive to lose then the player won't always be interested in winning everything.

Actually, you can earn more Keys (similar to XP, but it gives more narrative options).  You earn them from other players, who reward them based on the changes and developments you have shown happening with your character.  Your character doesn't necessarily have to succeed to do this.  The key word here is show. Basically, it's like a GM giving XP but instead of resting all this with a single individual, everyone else in the group is a potential resource.

My previous post already addressed the issue of using more than one Key per scene.

[Green]

And so on and so on.

As I mentioned before, what you're designing is an auction.  So, what are your constraints?  The only one that you mentioned is time.  Each player has X amount of time to invoke his Keys.  As Filip noted, this constraint is insufficient, as someone could simply rattle off all his Keys and say "I invoke all these."  Saying "That's not how the game should be played" doesn't help, because then how should it be played, and what can the other players point at to say that he is wrong?

There are additional constraints to address this.  The main one is, "Show don't tell."  If the character doesn't do or say something that shows the Key's trait, the Key remains unplayed.

What about the auction format?  Currently, it looks like your setup is essentially a "once-around".  Each player gets to contribute to the scene once around the room, and then the conflict is resolved.  But is this the best format?  What about an open-ended auction, going around the room until everyone passes?  Or what about a "dollar auction", where the top bidder wins but the top two pay?

No, this isn't quite right.  You seem to believe that Keys can be "spent."  They can't.  The sequence of narration is not that rigidly structured.  Playing a Key involves nothing but demonstrating the trait the Key represents.  The challenge for players is not strategic use of resources but creative invoking of character traits.  Not that the auction-type of game is invalid.  I've already designed such a game.  The focus for this one is different.

[Jasper]

If so, I think you should explain in the rules how the game is supposed to be played and how not. If your game is not about winning, there's no point to prevent such behaviours. If players try to play that way, they actually won't be playing your game anymore. So that's their, not your problem.

That's what I figured.  I just needed someone else to say it.  Thanks.

So, is there any particular "munchkin behavior" you're actually worried about at this point?

[Green]

So, is there any particular "munchkin behavior" you're actually worried about at this point?

Nope.  The other behaviors I thought about could easily be filed under, "lack of home training," and as such are beyond the scope of the game text.

[Mike Holmes]

Nope, wrong conclusion entirely. You're missing Seth's critical points and they're the only ones that hit the heart of the matter so far in this thread. If your game system incentivizes X, and you say, "Don't do X" and say that people are playing wrong, then your game is broke, broke, broke. For instance, The Window game system comes down to nothing but suggestions for how to play that the system does nothing to support. What happens in people's experience with actual play? Players ignore the textual suggestions and play to the system. Or you get some of each, and players angry at each other. Or you get the sort of play that the text suggests, but then you don't need the system at all.

Your system is about which player gets to say what happens, not which character wins. This means you're putting the players in direct competition with each other for the ability to modify the story, with only one winning strategy. Following that strategy isn't "munchkinism," it's doing what the system is telling them to do.

Mike

[baron samedi]

Hello everyone,

I'm a new guy here... Sorry if I'm interrupting or not following etiquette, I've presented myself earlier (qv. http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19644.0)

In any case, I'd suggest in concordance with Mike's suggestion that the card game ONCE UPON A TIME shows a design flaw not unlike what has been mentioned, and you might want to check out errata regarding this. This game requires, for a player to win, that he spends all his cards in telling a story.

In my experience, I've won every single game in less than 5 minutes by massively dropping a string of cards into a quickly spun story worthy of a used car salesman. This, in effect, "knocks out" less asservite players and leaves all the room for the "large mouths". This is a possible design flaw you might want to prevent, by using for example an escalation mechanism such as mentioned in Mr. James Kirk III's RPG Design Theory : http://legendaryquest.netfirms.com/books/Patterns.zip

Regards,

Erick N. Bouchard
Quebec, Canada

[LemmingLord]

This is a great thread for me at this point for me as I've been looking to develop a framework whereby the players take equal rolls as gamemaster.  The keys are an interesting concept that provide some ground rules...  It seems to be that additional ground rules may be very helpful to avoid too much domination by one player.  In addition to one's narative being restricted to "that which illustrates one's protected character's characteristics" and also by a time limit, ones narrative might also be limited to "that which illustrates the theme of the scene/session/campaign (or in the case of comic book style page/issue/story arc).

Instead of the munchkin narration: As the Five hundred orcs climb over the city walls in droves, Meric the cleric spies them and swears upon his honor that they will not hurt the children of Oatmill Orphanage upon his own death.  He waves the holy book of Avadril before him and lightning strikes down each and every orc in turn.

(which would probably be munchkin; especially if the five hundred orcs were supposed to be the big villains and the one player just ended it without all that thought)

We might add a scene specific: 1) this is an orc attack that will challenge each of the major characters and the entire town for at least several hours; the player can not munchkin in this way:

As the five hundred orcs climb over the city walls in droves, Meric the cleric spies them and recalls the children of Oatmill Orphanage are caught in the open; upon his oath to protect them, he kisses his holy book and asks Avadril to bless him in his task to protect the children.  He returns the book to his pack and sprints as fast as he can towards the orphanage.

To make this kind of restriction work, all players would have to agree to the gound rules beforehand.