[D&D With the Kids] You have your good days...

[greyorm]

...and you have your bad days.

I'm sorry to report this last session was one of the latter, and this is going to be relatively short. You'll see why.

We played two weekends ago, and those of you who read my LJ know last week was like for me offline, which explains why I am only posting about it now. Also, we did not play this past weekend for the same reason I did not post about the last game.

My wife joined us for this game, and unfortunately ended up being part of the problem. She did not think about how joking at the table was going to result in ten-minute episodes of goofing off by my son, characterized by litanies of bad jokes and increasingly "look how silly I can be" behaviors that only he was finding funny.

This consisted of things like grabbing pieces off the map to do slapstick comedy with (mainly involving throwing them across the room or at the rest of us), moving other people's pieces around and making jests about what they were doing ("Oh you run away because you're a scaredy cat, HELP HELP"), creating nonsense questions about things ("Will it help me pick my nose?"), and choosing actions purely for nonsensical and silly reasons (ie: "being crazy because I'm silly").

Of course, his sister eventually began to imitate or react to these things, and the game spiralled into horse-play between the two of them as well as arguments. We had to talk him down, each time, trying to mentally drag him back to the task-at-hand in the game, or get him to let whomever's turn it was actually take their turn without being interrupted. All in all, the behavior was very disruptive and led to little play and lots of frustration on the part of everyone else, so, we ended up only playing for a little more than an hour.

Near the end, I was at the point where I did not want to play any longer and was ready to just call it for the night. I even let him know this, and did take better control of himself after that. The damage was already done, however. My wife eventually went outside to indulge her disgusting filthy expensive poisonous habit (or as clever advertisers call it, "smoking"), my daughter fell asleep on the couch during this break, and because of that I figured we'd just call it for the night and try again next weekend.

Now, when we did manage to play, in between the horse-play, some play did happened, including one really cool moment. My daughter pulled a torch out of a crack in the wall and was attacked by the wasps nesting behind it. After a round or two swiping at them with a torch, she tried a Dexterity stunt to catch all the wasps in her wineskin! She succeeded and she now has a wineskin full of buzzing wasps she is waiting to unleash on an unsuspecting enemy.

If I had been using XP tokens, that idea would have warranted one.

Beyond that, not much happened. There was what should have been a swift combat against two goblins that took fifteen minutes to finish because of the goofing off. The wasp incident occurred. They cleared away a rockfall and discovered a body, then a ghost in a tunnel just beyond it. My son sent his character back to town to get a cleric to put the ghost to rest. And that was that. Not much at all for an hour-long game.

Mechanically, I went with "roll under your Ability score" without any modifiers for various skills and stunts. I allowed the thieves free attacks for being successfully hidden. But I just did not have enough game to try out anything else we discussed in the last thread. I did realize I need more dice for tokens! I'll have to buy some this Friday.

Now, my wife and I talked about the game later and about what was setting my son off. I didn't beat around the bush, I brought it straight up: "You know, you can't joke at the table, because he latches on to it and does it himself. And he can't control himself, doesn't know when to stop or when it is appropriate."

She agreed, but stated that aggravated her because she enjoys being able to socialize and play around at the table, too. I don't blame her for being aggravated that she can not do those things, but I tried to impress upon her that the last game we ran, even though there wasn't any whimsical joking-around as such, it was still very fun.

Also, in play, I could see her becoming upset because my son was being a kid (that is, when he wasn't being a terror). I suspect she went into play with an attitude of "We're a party, and this is how we behave" and maybe "I must teach the kids how to play", but I haven't discussed this with her yet.

It may be because the last time she played in an RPG (at least at the table) was over six years ago -- around four or five if you include the on-line game we used to be in -- and he's only ever played D&D, mainly a highly Illusionist game that was everything I didn't like about gaming. I suspect bad habits about "what gaming is/how gaming works" may be at the root of that vague sense of what she seemed to be trying to do at the table.

Unfortunately, there wasn't really enough actual play for me to peg anything but a vague feeling about her play-behavior. The other distractions of the night won't let me pinpoint any exact thing I could call attention to. In fact, I may be completely off-base, and it may have just been mounting frustration with general events that I was sensing.

Anyways, that's all I've got this time around. We may or may not play this upcoming Saturday, as my wife will be out of town. If she doesn't mind, though -- and I'm rather sure she won't -- I might just play with the kids.

[komradebob]

Sorry to hear you had such a rough time, Rev.

Out of curiosity, have you tried any modifications that make non-GM players take up some of the story responsibility?

It sounds odd, but one of the things I've noticed multiple times, with both adults and kids, is that they don't really "get" what kind of energy a GM puts into a game.

[greyorm]

Out of curiosity, have you tried any modifications that make non-GM players take up some of the story responsibility?

Not yet, though we discussed a bit of that last time. Thinking about it as a concrete goal, one of the things I might try next session is just outright asking, "Well, what do YOU think is in this next cavern?" and then flying with whatever they give me, or basing my description on that in part. Seems the simplest method of achieving player-input, esepcially with kids.

There are a couple of large, empty caverns on the map that would be well-suited to this purpose, and of course, I can always ask it about any cavern they've been through already -- creating a nice dynamically-active cavern system.

[komradebob]

Emily Care had some really practical advice on playing rpg-like games with her friends' kids that I found really useful. It wasn't system specific by any means. I'll see if I can find the link.

Mostly it involved asking for ideas, pre-adventure, including getting them to give ideas for obstacles/challenges/villians.

[komradebob]

Here's the link to Emily's post on her site:
http://www.fairgame-rpgs.com/comment?entry=20

[greyorm]

Cool. Thanks, man!

[Callan S.]

I let my 6yo son play world of warcraft while sitting on my knee. I give him a set amount of time to begin with (15 min). He's often quite aimless during this time. It's hard to explain exactly what he does, because he does not do much - there is no real plan involved and at most you could say he wanders around, gets killed because he's not paying attention and looks at stuff either with scant attention or an unwarrented amount of attention.

However, so this doesn't drive me out of my mind I offered five minutes of extra time if he takes on a challenge. Influenced by my time here, I made the rule that this challenged defined by him and he gets it even if he loses the challenge (my idea is not to reward winning, but to reward choosing to take something on to begin with).

When he's taken it on (I think every single time I've reminded him of the rule) he usually sets a challenge for himself along the lines of beating X amount of monsters in X minutes. During these times his play becomes sharpened. Use of powers becomes more focused and efficient and he checks to avoid being blindsided like he often was during that previous free time. He's beaten most of his challenges so far and out of the four or five he's taken on, he hasn't gone for some absolutely wimpy challenge either (not that he couldn't, the rule empowers him). He even challenged me to a kill X in Y time challenge once, which was a bit of a good shock for me.

Just giving an actual play account to make of as you will.

[Meguey]

We've played a fair variety of games with our boys (Sebastian is 9.5, Elliot is 6 - the kids Emily Care plays with, btw). I started playing D&D around age 7, but I was playing with slightly older peers, not adults. My suggestion: play a different game. We've had decent play with Universalis, Monsters-Monsters (our actual play) , The Big Night, and Nighttime Animals Save the World (which Vincent wrote for them). Or adapt the crap out of D&D.

I find that GMing for kids means lots of fast thinking and free-wheeling across the story-world, because they don't stop to think things out as much, or measure their encumberance, or wait patiently while the GM thinks for a second and explains the details of a scene. They also want even more than grown folks to be effective and overcome the odds.

[greyorm]

I find that GMing for kids means lots of fast thinking and free-wheeling across the story-world, because they don't stop to think things out as much, or measure their encumberance, or wait patiently while the GM thinks for a second and explains the details of a scene. They also want even more than grown folks to be effective and overcome the odds.

Thanks for the feedback, Meg!

If you read the last post in this series, you'll note that a modified, rules-lighter version of the Basic D&D rules -- something fun and kid-friendly -- is exactly what I'm striving for. Also, given your much greater experience in gaming with your own kids, any specific suggestions you have about adapting that particular ruleset for kids about the same ages as yours would be appreciated. I'll make sure to check out the AP posts you've pointed to as well.

As well, things you've mentioned are good thinks for me to keep in mind when playing, as I do find it is easy to become frustrated with the kids, and we can butt heads over what seem small things for no reason.

In fact, related to this, Jay mentioned to me he thinks my play was fine from a Simulationist POV. I found that interesting, though I disagree with the style tag because I'm not trying for Sim (or anything, really). If I were aiming for anything, I would say I am aiming for Gamism.

However, I've given the remark and evidence some thought, and feel Jay is right. In hindsight, many of my decisions and internal thought processes certainly do seem motivated by adherence to Sim behaviors, while at the same time my children are definitely very involved in Gamist style behaviors. From my perspective, watching them in action, Stepping Up is very important to their play and really focuses their attention.

So, given your statements above, one of the things I believe I need to do (or at least try) next time around is make sure to put clear challenges and obstacles in their path. Clear goals and clear obstacles, with less concentration on discovering the environment or slavish devotion to a dungeon-crawl, decision-point format (ie: "Which direction now? Stop and tie your boots?").

[komradebob]

How is stuff like cut-scenes/skipping to the next bit of action working out for you?

For example, with my daughter, she likes to jump to the "next big thing" pretty rapidly. If you want to stick with a D&D style game, how are you approaching the issue of going between the cool stuff?

I guess what I'm getting at is, if you were to take a traditional dungeoncrawl set up, would you take a sort of old school approach where you wander around the whole dungeon, or a more Cliff notes approach where you pick out, say 3-4 cool encounters and really buff those up, skipping the in-between stuff?

I'm curious because in the games I play with Threnody, we tend towards the miniatures heavy story gaming. Even a smallish traditional dungeon is a big project, so we tend more towards a few key interesting locales insteda. I was wondering what experiences you might have had that were similar.

[Meguey]

So, given your statements above, one of the things I believe I need to do (or at least try) next time around is make sure to put clear challenges and obstacles in their path. Clear goals and clear obstacles, with less concentration on discovering the environment or slavish devotion to a dungeon-crawl, decision-point format (ie: "Which direction now? Stop and tie your boots?").

This meets my experience very well. I think the "Clear goals and clear obstacles" could be an adults-gaming-with-kids mantra. As far as decision points, I suspect the choose-your-own-adventure style works best. Instead of "Which direction now?" it's "If you want to go straight to the goblin's castle, go left; if you want to sneak up through the forest, go right." This lets them know that fun is everywhere, while also giving them clear options AND giving you clear direction as to how much exploring they want vs. getting right to it. 

[greyorm]

In answer regarding cut-scenes and skipping from event-to-event, thus far, movement from encounter to encounter has very much been a rather boardgame-like affair, with rolls indicating how far you could go on the physcial map each time it was your turn, and the kids always head for interesting features on the map to see what they're all about (a pool of water, a river, a rockfall). So cut-scenes are something I haven't really been able to implement in the medium as it stands.

The kids do keep demanding we use a map, though I keep suggesting we go without it. At some point, I will sit down with them and we'll play a game that doesn't use a board, but they obviously aren't ready for/interested in doing without at the moment and I'm perfectly OK with that. Yes, it restricts the possibilities for this game regarding certain suggested approaches I might take, but given the other things I've been trying and what they're doing in play I think I can swing it.

Given that many board games tend to run the same way and support goal-oriented play: you roll, move, and something happens if you're in the right spot...otherwise you wait to roll again and get to the place. In any case, this makes a clear progression towards a goal: either getting somewhere or accomplishing something once you get there. The ideal in this case would be to set up things on the map, clearly marked -- probably with some kind of "descriptive" token -- and let the kids decide where they are going to try and get, throwing obstacles at them along the way (and they already have the "defeat the nasty goblin king" goal that started things off).

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play much with them the last couple weeks because of all the various problems that keep cropping up, from the sewage backup into the basement, to the total computer crash, to the usual insanity of scheduling at work, especially around the holidays. Since these things seem to come in threes and that's three right there, I'm hoping to have another substantial play report after this weekend.

[Tony Irwin]

Hi Greyorm, I've really enjoyed these threads. Its great to hear about roleplaying games being approached as a fun family activity.

I'm curious though - did either of your children request this game take place?

I want to say I'm surprised at this statement:

The kids do keep demanding we use a map, though I keep suggesting we go without it.

Actually I'm astonished by it. If you had said

The other adults I play with keep demanding we use a map, though I keep suggesting we go without it.

then this thread would be crawling with people telling you not to start another game until you can hash out a way for all of you to actually have the fun you want to have. How do you see your role in these games? Do you see yourself as trying to teach them how to appreciate and enjoy a creative and social activity (a very important thing for parents to do), or are you trying to identify what they enjoy and provide more of it for them? I don't see a wrong answer here, I'm just interested to know which side you fall on for this series of games.

and the kids always head for interesting features on the map to see what they're all about (a pool of water, a river, a rockfall).

This was a delightful little detail to read about, thanks for this. I'll point to it whenever I'm discussing with others how we can write better family games. Knowing this about your kids, has it changed your approach to prepping and GMing for them?

Tony

[Tony Irwin]

Sorry Greyorm, I read your last post without actually reading it. You went into a lot of details about incorporating the map into your future games, ignore my last question in my post above.

[greyorm]

Heh, that's ok, Tony. I reread my last post and it was rambling and slightly disjointed. That's what I get for rushing a response.

As to your other questions:

I'm curious though - did either of your children request this game take place?

If you are asking "Did they show interest in the game?" as opposed to "Did you tell them they were playing this?" then the answer is the former. Family night is a "what should we do together tonight?" sort-of thing, and everyone usually suggests something. I don't recall at this point who first suggested we play, but the important bit is that they decided they wanted to do it, without any sort of enforced acceptance of the activity on my part. We very easily could have played Risk or Monopoly instead or watched a movie.

How do you see your role in these games? Do you see yourself as trying to teach them how to appreciate and enjoy a creative and social activity (a very important thing for parents to do), or are you trying to identify what they enjoy and provide more of it for them?

A little bit of both, as I don't see those as opposite sides of a spectrum. I see the former as something one does once one has done the latter.

Regarding the board thing, I'm sure if this were with adults, I would get that very talk about "sitting down and making sure everyone is on the same page" from some of my well-meaning but overly proactive fellows. After all, this is not me saying, "I don't want a board! I can't have fun with a board! Damn you for choosing it!" and the other side chanting, "We must have a board! It isn't a real game without a board! Too bad for you!" There is no broken social contract here or bitter gamers in a passive-aggressive fight for control of the SIS.

I ask, "Hey, do you want to do this?" They say "No." That's pure functional interaction, between adults or between adults and kids. There's no social subtext where the person asking the question is desperately trying to get his way without confronting his peers about his own desires or needs.