Debuffs in Sorcerer?

[Randulf]

I'm playing with converting some elements of the Hârn setting (currently working on religion) to Sorcerer, and I can't find a lot of "debuffs" (to borrow MMORPG terminology) among the demonic abilities.  Basically, I'm looking for the opposite of a Boost.  Should I just add a description to a Special Damage ability that remove the desired trait, e.g. remove X Will for morale purposes only, or reduce combat skills by Y?

Thanks,
Scott

[Ron Edwards]

None of the above. The effect you describe does not exist in Sorcerer. There is no "penalties to one thing, but not another," in this game. All damage applies to all rolls. There are a few exceptions, but they are not quite exceptions because they are not damage, e.g., Punish.

I'm not sure whether the following concept helps you to understand why, but here goes: the scores in Sorcerer are not parsed out among physical, mental, and whatever as they are in most RPGs. All the scores are physical and mental.

My general recommendation when converting to Sorcerer is not to be literal at all. If it were possible to convert to Sorcerer from, say, GURPS, on a 1:1 basis, then there would have been no point in writing the game, I would just have used GURPS in the first place. If you really want to play Sorcerer, then you're going to have to leave certain things in your initial system or setting behind.

So my question to you is not, why use Sorcerer, but rather, why use anything to do with Hârn at all? I'd like a very concrete answer, not something like, "Oh, I just like it," or something like that. Tell me what specific elements of Hârn you're working with, and what you think their primary power or content is. Then I can see what Sorcerer can do for you.

Best, Ron

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

None of the above. The effect you describe does not exist in Sorcerer. There is no "penalties to one thing, but not another," in this game. All damage applies to all rolls. There are a few exceptions, but they are not quite exceptions because they are not damage, e.g., Punish.

As a counterexample (presumably the aforementioned exceptions), Cloak and Daze both impose a penalty to Perception, but not to Cover. 

Does the effect I'm looking for not exist because it's too close to mind control, which I know is explicitly blacklisted from the rules?  Because it seems an appropriate demonic ability to scare the crap out of your enemy so that the foe's morale will suffer, and "damage to Will" seemed like the way to accomplish that.  OTOH, a big fugly demon with spooky special effects and GM fiat could accomplish the same thing, albeit somewhat more overtly.

I'm not sure whether the following concept helps you to understand why, but here goes: the scores in Sorcerer are not parsed out among physical, mental, and whatever as they are in most RPGs. All the scores are physical and mental.

I'm with ya on that.  It's one of the (many) things I dig about the system.

My general recommendation when converting to Sorcerer is not to be literal at all. If it were possible to convert to Sorcerer from, say, GURPS, on a 1:1 basis, then there would have been no point in writing the game, I would just have used GURPS in the first place. If you really want to play Sorcerer, then you're going to have to leave certain things in your initial system or setting behind.

So my question to you is not, why use Sorcerer, but rather, why use anything to do with Hârn at all? I'd like a very concrete answer, not something like, "Oh, I just like it," or something like that. Tell me what specific elements of Hârn you're working with, and what you think their primary power or content is. Then I can see what Sorcerer can do for you.

I'm definitely not trying to convert the HârnWorld rules to Sorcerer - I would have to bend them so far they'd both break. I like the setting ("Oh, I just like it"), because I'm a sucker for beautiful maps, and I like the medieval-England-with-a-twist culture, and I like the level of detail and the stories that are lurking in the background of the setting, and the high quality fan material that's been written lately.  The mythology is pretty tightly bound to the setting, so what I'm doing at this point is playing with ideas for how Hârn's clerical abilities might function in Sorcerer terms - not in terms of mapping every invocation to a demonic power, but rather getting a gestalt sense of what each religion's clerical powers generally are, and then pointing to what sorts of demons they might bind in order to harness those powers.  In other words, I'm exploring how to customize Sorcerer to fit the Hârnic mythology.

While I'm using rules from Sorcerer, Sword, and Soul but it's not a S&S game as described in chapter three.  However, just because Hârn has literature not only on how many oats a donkey eats but what it costs, what it can carry, how many peasants it takes to grow the oats, how much it weighs and how often it poops doesn't mean I'm going to use all that either. <grin>

The basic story of a battle between deities being waged in our world with humans as itermediaries is easily converted to Sorcerer terms - just accept that most of the deities are demon lords of some sort with hosts of servitors that their devoted clerics have rituals for binding and/or pacting with.

It's easiest with the "evil" religions, of course.  Morgathianism is easily built by powering sorcery with human sacrifice, necromantic totems, and using possessor demons to animate the undead. Agrikan religion already deals with a hierarchy of demons in canon, and the powers are easy to explain in terms of different flavors of Special Damage (pain, fire, infection, bloodloss, fire, bacon, eggs, spam and fire) plus Taint as I mentioned above.  Navehan clerics have inconspicuous buddies with Cloak, Daze, Perception and Taint (and of course a Need for the occasional human death).

The "good" religions are pretty easy too, with Angelics available as intermediaries for Siem and Peoni, with most other clerical abilities actually coming from mundane skills.  I'm still kicking around what to do with the other religions.

Anyway, I think I've answered your question.  And thanks for answering mine.  Here's another - I notice there's no "Boost Cover" ability - does boosting the score that Cover is based on have the equivalent effect?  Sorry if I've overlooked a statement about that in the rules.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Randulf,

Yes, Daze and Cloak are the abilities I did not list, and they too are not exceptions, because, as with Punish, they are not damage.

Have you played Sorcerer yet? There are ways to answer your question about why there are no score-specific damage effects, but which way depends very greatly on your previous experience with the game.

I really like your answer regarding the Harn setting, because it means you're talking about a Sorcerer game influenced by those readings, rather than a conversion in the usual gaming sense. I can work with that.

The basic story of a battle between deities being waged in our world with humans as itermediaries is easily converted to Sorcerer terms - just accept that most of the deities are demon lords of some sort with hosts of servitors that their devoted clerics have rituals for binding and/or pacting with.

You might consider backing up a little further to the source fiction which led to most game settings of this kind: the Elric stories by Michael Moorcock. If you do, I suggest highly selective readings based on their order of actual publication.

One problem with the way this concept has been implemented in RPG design is to treat what a given demon lord wants as an ideology that his followers have embraced. In which case, the cleric becomes a rather stupid, rather uninteresting character. I suggest instead that what humans get out of following the particular god/demonlord is perfectly reasonable in human terms, i.e., it's something that people might actually want. And to top that off, a sorcerer character by definition is capable of separating his or her desires from those of the demons they interact with. Without that, the Sorcerer rules don't work at all.

With that in mind, it seems to me as if your concern with the setting per se should come secondary to a concern with the character descriptors. They are really the "make choices" element of character creation, far more so than whatever whacked ideologies or goals the demons may have.

The answer to your final question is no, Boosting a score does not secondarily increase Cover. Boost only applies to Stamina, Lore, or Will, and it only affects that single thing. To confirm your correct reading, Cover is not Boosted. If you want a demon-augmented Cover skill, then you'll need a demon with a high Power, the Cover ability that it can confer to the character, and define the demon's Cover as the same as the character's. It's a pricey ability, because it won't yield much "sauce" unless the demon's Power is substantially higher than the character's Cover. That's on purpose.

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

Have you played Sorcerer yet? There are ways to answer your question about why there are no score-specific damage effects, but which way depends very greatly on your previous experience with the game.

No sir, so please give me the newb's answer. <grin>

To expand on that slightly, I'm trying to put together a group, with myself as GM.  Between real life responsibilities, personality conflicts, and semi-flaky players, it's a challenge.  Fortunately, from what I read, Sorcerer will run well with one or even two players, so if I can just hit that threshold I'll be set.  Shouldn't be impossible, here in a major metropolitan areas (northern DC suburbs).

I really like your answer regarding the Harn setting, because it means you're talking about a Sorcerer game influenced by those readings, rather than a conversion in the usual gaming sense. I can work with that.

Gratzie.  I think I more or less "get" what Sorcerer is about - I read your GNS articles before I bought the books, so I understood where you were generally coming from and what the point was.

The basic story of a battle between deities being waged in our world with humans as itermediaries is easily converted to Sorcerer terms - just accept that most of the deities are demon lords of some sort with hosts of servitors that their devoted clerics have rituals for binding and/or pacting with.

You might consider backing up a little further to the source fiction which led to most game settings of this kind: the Elric stories by Michael Moorcock. If you do, I suggest highly selective readings based on their order of actual publication.

As part of my homework I've reread the first Elric book, and I'm working my way through the new Conan trade paperback.  Neither is quite as political and intrigue-y (?) as I am aiming for, but it's still good stuff.

One problem with the way this concept has been implemented in RPG design is to treat what a given demon lord wants as an ideology that his followers have embraced. In which case, the cleric becomes a rather stupid, rather uninteresting character. I suggest instead that what humans get out of following the particular god/demonlord is perfectly reasonable in human terms, i.e., it's something that people might actually want. And to top that off, a sorcerer character by definition is capable of separating his or her desires from those of the demons they interact with. Without that, the Sorcerer rules don't work at all.

With that in mind, it seems to me as if your concern with the setting per se should come secondary to a concern with the character descriptors. They are really the "make choices" element of character creation, far more so than whatever whacked ideologies or goals the demons may have.

Huh.  I have to ponder that for a while.  These are the "arcane regimen", etc, score descriptors you are talking about now, right?  Hmm, hmm...

The answer to your final question is no, Boosting a score does not secondarily increase Cover. Boost only applies to Stamina, Lore, or Will, and it only affects that single thing. To confirm your correct reading, Cover is not Boosted. If you want a demon-augmented Cover skill, then you'll need a demon with a high Power, the Cover ability that it can confer to the character, and define the demon's Cover as the same as the character's. It's a pricey ability, because it won't yield much "sauce" unless the demon's Power is substantially higher than the character's Cover. That's on purpose.

Cover, of course. Makes sense - thanks.

[Ron Edwards]

Right, those descriptors. The list you use should be fixed for all player-characters and most likely for most NPCs as well, for a given setting for Sorcerer. This is ... well, it's a big deal. Trust me on that.

As for my answer to your question, now that I know you're still amping up to play for the first time, I'll put it this way:

Sorcerer cannot be gamed. That's right, you cannot find ways to knock out another character's "best defense" in a strategic, focused way through the use of any particular ability. You can strategize, certainly, but not in the highly modular fashion that you might find in most other RPGs.

In other words, if you want the guy to have less dice than you in the next bit of conflict, you're gonna have to earn it with a regular attack just like anyone else. No ability gets you around that.

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

Sorcerer cannot be gamed. That's right, you cannot find ways to knock out another character's "best defense" in a strategic, focused way through the use of any particular ability. You can strategize, certainly, but not in the highly modular fashion that you might find in most other RPGs.

In other words, if you want the guy to have less dice than you in the next bit of conflict, you're gonna have to earn it with a regular attack just like anyone else. No ability gets you around that.

Hm, that does help.  I'd noticed various powers and tactics you can use to increase your own dice for various activities, thus gaining a competitive advantage over your opponent in a one-on-one.  I didn't see a way to reduce your opponents dice so that everyone would develop an advantage over him, other than straight up damage-dealing.  Per your explanation, that's intentional.

Thanks much for the clarification.

[Randulf]

Having poked around for inspiration on descriptors, I realized that what I need to do is develop my One Sheet (To Rule Them All?).  Stay tuned, I'll be asking for feedback once it's ready.

[Randulf]

Here's some initial thoughts for feedback.  I'm a little unsure about the Lore descriptors, as they overlap somewhat with Covers.  Thoughts?

What are Demons?
Demons are extradimensional beings that have existed since the beginning of time, normally residing in the realm of Yashain.  Some demons are organized into factions which battle each other literally in Yashain and indirectly, via humanity, on Kelestia, while others remain neutral.  Some call them gods, demigods, or spirits, functionally they are all demons in Sorcerer terms.

What are Sorcerers and what is Lore?
Sorcerers know rituals that can breach the veil between the worlds.  This requires casting the mind outside of normal boundaries, which carries the risk of exposing the naked mind to chaotic forces that can break down the psyche. Institutional knowledge of Lore is concentrated in the Shek-Pvar Convocations and in the churches of the various Harnic religions.

What is Humanity?
The ego - self determination and conscious intention.  As Humanity is lost, the consciousness frays and otherworldly forces begin to gain a toehold - this is not demonic possession but an increase in the psychic noise level.  At 0 Humanity, the ego is lost, the player is no longer in control, and the Story drives the character.  (I like this description, but does it result in Humanity being too close to Will?  I'm at a bit of a loss for when to test for Humanity gain or loss and what to use Humanity checks for... help!)

Stamina Descriptors
Outdoorsman. You have spent much of your time outdoors, and have honed your skills in hunting, outdoor survival, hearing and smell.  E.g. woodsman, bandit, or nomad.
Life of labor. Your body has been hardened by years of physical labor.  E.g. peasant, blacksmith, menial laborer.
Trained soldier. You have served in a military unit and have picked up weapon skills and useful social contacts. E.g. guardsman, knight, yeoman.
Big and strong.
Natural vigor. You are one of those irrirating people who are in shape without trying.
Scrapper. Your upbringing included frequent physical violence.

Will Descriptors
Code of Honor. You live by system of rules that tell you right from wrong.
Religious Piety. Faith sustains you.
Intriguer. You can pry information out of people and find a way to use it later.
Aristocrat. Your social status reinforces your knowledge that your way is best.
Angry. You bear a grudge that motivates you.
Vow. You've sworn an oath and you intend to fulfill it.
Charismatic.  A natural leader.

Lore Descriptors
Naive (suggested Lore 1) You don't understand it, but you have a peculiar little friend.
Apprentice (suggested Lore 1) Religious acolyte, Shek-Pvar apprentice, or other trainee.  Unless you have dropped out, you likely have significant duties.
Satia-Mavari (suggested Lore 2-3).  A journeyman mage of the Shek-Pvar, travelling the world gathering knowledge.
Viran (suggested Lore 4+). A master mage of the Shek-Pvar, possibly pursuing your studies in a chantry, or possibly continuing to seek Lore where you can find it.
Cleric (suggested Lore 1-3).  Most ordained members serve their churches with mundane skills but you are an exception.
Shaman (suggested Lore 2-3). Lore taught by individuals in a tribal setting - less formal than the institutions of the churches and the Shek-Pvar but greater flexibility.
Sindarin. (suggested Lore 2+) The elves have made their own arrangements with the otherworldly forces, and do not abide by the conventions of the human institutions. (note - I don't intend to allow nonhuman PCs)

Well that's how far I've gotten.  Feedback is more than welcome - it's eagerly sought!

[greyorm]

Well that's how far I've gotten.  Feedback is more than welcome - it's eagerly sought!

Just a suggestion, but the Stamina descriptors could be rewritten to use more thematic ties to the feel you're trying to get in the game. For example: Peasant Laborer would be a good descriptor for Harn. Things similar to this would also work well, IMO.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Most of your Lore descriptors are Covers. I suggest really focusing on what a sorcerer is - that is, someone who bargains for power with a demon, not just someone who serves a god or whatever - and coming up with very narrow, very personal Lore descriptors that have nothing to do with any particular social role.

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

Good suggestion, and whenever I ponder it I just come back to the Lore Descriptors in the books.  Dropping the social roles, my list becomes Naif, Apprentice, Coven Member, Adept, and Inhuman.  Maybe I can tweak the terms to match the setting, and maybe I can add Mad since it's so nice for the Sorcerer flavor.

Any suggestions on my Humanity questions above?

[Eero Tuovinen]

Lore Descriptors: perhaps you can keep the differentiation between elves, clerics and mages? I find those pretty appropriate lore descriptors for a fantasy game. But being any more detailed I find unnecessary. Elves: no reason to disallow as a player option, they seem like Melniboneans or similar.

Humanity: if you cannot formulate two or three examples of both humanity gain and loss checks each (ones that don't concern sorcery), then you probably don't have a concrete enough Humanity definition. Whether others at the forums can formulate such examples is kind of besides the point, because you're the one who has to play the game. So work on the humanity definition from the practical side until you feel that it's going to be relevant for events in play.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Your Humanity description shows its ties to a long-standing role-playing concern - who controls my character, me or the GM? That concern is at the heart of many Sanity and Humanity mechanics in other games.

In Sorcerer, this concern might play a role in Humanity when it drops to 0, as one of or part of the options listed in The Sorcerer's Soul. However, it's not very useful as a modulator or metric for invoking Humanity loss and gain during regular play.

Eero's advice is sound in its way, but I don't think he phrased it in the most useful way for you. I suggest instead thinking about the moral flaw in a "sorcerer gone bad," in the kind of game you'd like to play. Not his fate - drawn down to the demon-pits, babbling insanely in an alley, or whatever - but what is wrong with him, as a person.

Try to articulate that, fairly generally. Is it that he treats other people as mere things? Is it that he values one isolated aspect of people (e.g. family ties) drastically higher than anything else? Is it that he really will "do anything" for love?

That will help you arrive at a good term for Humanity. Remember, it can be general, and in fact should be, with lots of possible applications.

Then take it to your players. If you make up characters all together, and state that definition of Humanity once, and simply, then their character will show you alllllll about the nuances of the concept, without you setting them in stone before that point.

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

Lore Descriptors: perhaps you can keep the differentiation between elves, clerics and mages? I find those pretty appropriate lore descriptors for a fantasy game. But being any more detailed I find unnecessary. Elves: no reason to disallow as a player option, they seem like Melniboneans or similar.

I'm still torn over the differentiation - in one sense, as I imagine it both mages and clerics obtain their powers through sorcerous rituals learned from a larger institution, the main difference being in the nature of the demons they deal with - clerics work with the servitors of the godlike major demons while mages prefer to work with 'unaffiliated' forces.  It strikes me almost as the distinction between the demon lords and the elementals in Elric, except of course that Grome et al were pretty godlike in their abilities.

The lack of nonhumans is more of a personal choice for the way I envision the setting.  Elves and dwarves are very nearly legendary to 99% of Harnic humanity, and a nonhuman player would suffer a level of discrimination that would prevent them from fitting into the kingdom politics that I'd like to be a major plot element of the game.  I suppose if a player were bent on having pointy ears, I might make an accomodation, but it's not currently a problem.

Your Humanity description shows its ties to a long-standing role-playing concern - who controls my character, me or the GM? That concern is at the heart of many Sanity and Humanity mechanics in other games.

Old habits are hard to break, aren't they? <grin>

Eero's advice is sound in its way, but I don't think he phrased it in the most useful way for you. I suggest instead thinking about the moral flaw in a "sorcerer gone bad," in the kind of game you'd like to play. Not his fate - drawn down to the demon-pits, babbling insanely in an alley, or whatever - but what is wrong with him, as a person.

I think it ties in with what I've described that a sorcerer gone bad would lose his spiritual bond with other people, manifesting as a loss of empathy ending in sociopathic behavior (i.e. what you said about "treats other people as mere things").  The demon world becomes his primary concern, and other humans mere tools to achieve his goals in that realm or pawns representing the success of his sorcerous aims.  This would manifest differently depending on the sorcerer - a Morgathian would see other people as fodder for sacrifice, material for animation or as opponents to be avoided or defeated.  A Laranian would not start sacrificing humans when Humanity was gone, but would see his flock only in terms of how they can meet the needs of his bound servitors of Larani, becoming a vicious crusader, persecuter of heretics, etc.

Does that sound like a reasonable track?

Then take it to your players. If you make up characters all together, and state that definition of Humanity once, and simply, then their character will show you alllllll about the nuances of the concept, without you setting them in stone before that point.

I'm looking forward to that part. :)