How to improve sales performances without (much) tweaks...

[Levekius]

Ok, the title was cheesy and I apologize for that.

But I wanted to speak about sales for small press business. I noticed that a person from Apophis (Dav, I think) was here and it made me think about something.

Sometimes, companies seem to wonder how they can improve sales. And then they talk about better art.

Or clearer writing.

Or more promotions on the internet.

Columns on the design of the product.

Basically, other ways to promte the stuff... to the same people. Of course, this ISN'T a bad thing in my opinion. But maybe you need to taget OTHER folks with the same game ?

What do I mean ? I mean I'm from Montreal, Canada. My Local Gaming Store is one of the biggest (and certainly one of the most successful) in Canada.

They've been around for 20 years (20th anniversary this week, apparently) and they've got a hold on the hobby in the city.

They have an incredible selection of games, and competitive prices.

But they've never had Obsidian.

They've never had Lace & Steel.

They never had Blue Planet 1st edition either, until Biohazard "sold the rights" to FFG.

And curiously enough, ***AS SOON*** as they sold the right, 1st edition was in store (My understanding is that on top of working on the 2nd edition, FFG became in charge of liquidating the unsold 1st edition remnants).

I think it was Dav saying on another thread that RPG.net reviews had been helpful. Well, sure they were for me. But I couldn't get the game.

My store, as I said, is SUCCESSFUL. Unfortunately, they don't listen to customers. They won't go through all the work. They get what they can from distribtors.

Those new (very clever) tips you discuss are truly impressive. Most of them have NO BORDERS. Like the internet.

But once the message got across, you need to find ways to get the game across too :smile:

I am not yet an industry guy. I may never publish. But if I ever do, I'll make damn sure I get distribution to as many places as I can. It seems as importnat to me as tweaking the game over and over again. Because no matter how you improve, only a given portion of people will have an interest.

So, while I appreciate the fact a second edition of Obsidian is out, I still can't get it. See the irony ? You folks had (apparently, I never read it) a game oozing with potential in Obsidian. You sold as many as you could, promoted it, etc..

Then, to please the customers, you work on a new edition. It costs a lot. A lot of efforts goes into this. Tweaking, improving...

You hope for even more success (And I wish you the best) by doing this, but maybe some efforts should go into making sure it's widely available.

I'd say this is especially important for small companies, who sometimes pretty much live or die by a few copies sold. It could mean a lot for some of you.

I hope this tip will be helpful for some of you :smile:

This of course brings more questions: How hard is it to sell internationally ? Does it require extra efforts or connections ?

And do most stores ignore their customers ? We have only two relatively big gaming stores in montreal. But ignore my requests. Is it that way elsewhere ?

Seems to me like (unfortunately) publishers need to push their games into stores instead of stores making efforts to carry the game :sad:

PS: The above while concerning Obsidian could likely apply to many small companies IMO.

Take care ! :smile:

Martin

[Clay]

Martin,

It is that way in a lot of places.  My local game store will place orders for me if I ask (it helps that I used to game with the Games manager), but they very rarely stock the smaller press stuff.  It's heavy with Rifts, White Wolf, D & D, and Deadlands, because those are the big games people are willing to pay money for in this town.

Of course, they completely miss their market for Call of Cthulhu.  I notice that the local bookstore, Borders (a gigantic chain) can't keep the core rulebook on the shelves.  One week there will be three copies on the shelf, and they're gone the next week.

So what's the solution?

Sell via the Internet. The distributors will hate you, because you just cut them out of the picture.  But the gamers who know about your games will be able to order.  Ron's been doing it with Sorcerer, and Chaosium has been doing good business that way with Call of Cthulhu.  

As for selling internationally, it isn't a major problem to sell things to Canada, because that border is fairly open. There might be some issues with Customs, but I wouldn't expect many. The only real concern that I would have is that the mail between U.S. and Canada is very slow.  But there are also other routes.  Dream Pod 9 sells a lot of product here in the U.S., and they're based out of Toronto.

[Levekius]

Hello Clay !

So what's the solution?

Sell via the Internet. The distributors will hate you, because you just cut them out of the picture.  But the gamers who know about your games will be able to order.  Ron's been doing it with Sorcerer, and Chaosium has been doing good business that way with Call of Cthulhu.  

Yes... but I wonder *how much* will you piss off the distributors. Is it enough that they *will* remember you if one day you try to do business with them ?

I am under the impression not all of them do a quality job of, well... distributing :smile:

For the record, I think there are products that deserve a much better faith. If it means bypassing distributors, so be it.

Some game stores are definitly guilty too. I'm all for supporting local shops, but they have to *at least* show enough interest for their customers. Being afraid of carrying a product is one thing. But ignoring customers who are willing to buy a product is another one.

Anyway, I think the industry needs to realize it's the little games that make a difference. With two or three main brand, there won't be much of a need for hobby shops: you'll be able to pick the WotC and WW stuff from "normal" bookstores. (It's that way in montreal, at least).

PS: I wanted to correct a small thing: Dream Pod 9's main office is (to my knowledge still) located 15 minutes afoot from where I type this. Which is in montreal :smile:

They may have an office in Toronto, though. Or they may have moved but I am not aware of this.

Later ! :smile:

[Dav]

Levekius:

Damn fine point.  We get it a lot.  You are absolutely right.

That said, we have taken the following steps to insure that we are "all we can be":

1) We are available to all major distributors in the US.  

2) Our new website will have a retailer/reseller area where you can buy our product from us at bulk rate (dsitrbutor price)

3) Liz Fulda.  Liz Fulda.  Liz Fulda.  (of the Shpinx Group, of the Sphinx Group, of the Sphinx Group)

4) Translation blitz (thus far we have collected four new languages!  Gotta catch 'em all)

5) Um, that's it.


Anyway, that is our take on the situation.  If you think we can be oing more, let us know.


Dav

[Clay]

So far, the distribution channels don't seem too cheesed at Chaosium, who sells via Wizard's attic.  It's true that Chaosium has a bigger presence in book stores than in game stores, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, given the ratio of book stores to game stores.

[Levekius]

Dav, I found another store in my province (outside of montreal, though. It's a place where Marion Poliquin, an RPG.net poster, works).

They have told me that to their knowledge, Obsidian isn't available through canadian distributors. They are actively looking for it right now. If they don't find it my best bet is to do business with AC directly.

I'm really intrigued by the game, and one day I'll put my hands on it :smile:

It's good that you are planning releases in different languages. Apparently the french edition will be from 7th circle/7e cercle. A company I don't remember hearing from, but hey, everybody's got to start from somewhere :smile:

I'm really curious, because this push the discussion in another direction: How do you keep control ?

From what I understand, a lot of thought went into the setting. That kind of info, unlike technicalities (rules) is often done in part thank to the writing style.

So how do you guys at AC feel about the translations ? Because obviously, unless you speak all those languages, you'll have to trust outsiders ?

How do you make sure they are the right people ?

Also, for anybody who would know, why does the french Hero Wars version have better production value ? (It blends two english HW rulebook into one, it's hardcover, etc...)

Does the same apply to Obsidian ? How do you deal with that stuff between publishers ? How do you insure it's similar to *your* vision of the game ?

It's really interesting stuff, I must say.

Thanks !

Martin

[Dav]

Okay, while this may violate the NDA, here it is:

7th Circle, who is our French translator, is a great company.  We demanded, they accomodated.  They are wonderful.

1) The core book must be published hardcover.  It may not be changed except as grammar/language dictates.  

2) They must agree to publish all things AC that we produce for print.  After the hardcover of the core book, they are free to publish with whatever cvoer/value they choose.

3) They may produce their own work for Obsidian, though we have final rights, and are the "owners" of such material.  They already have their own Narrator's Screen and a supplement called "Arkanes" (I think that means Arcane, but I don't know).  

4) We get a cut of all material.

5) They can make anything they want, but again, we are the "owners"...  I think they wanted coffee mugs and shirts.  Chizz.

  We do not necessarily keep control of their product.  They make it, sell it, distribute it, and keep a large portion.  But they pay for all of it.  That means, under a business ethic, they would want to do all they can to see it succeed.  We trust in greed.  It works, even if it seems a bit shallow or jaded.

For other languages, we are using a similar contract model.  It seems that most of this is pretty run-of-the-mill for most translators, so I assume other companies seek similar deals.  Feder und Schwert, who we are speaking to for our German translation, has tons of German-exclusive Vampire material, which will never be seen stateside.

Now, as for difficulty getting Obsidian in Canada, what distrbutors do you use out there?  I will make sure we call them and convince them to love us.

If you still can't find us, let me know, I'll send you a copy.


Dav

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Re: Hero Wars
I remember seeing the covers for the international versions (French & German, I thinl) at the GTS and they were just *gorgeous*.  Dammit.  I wanna play Hero Wars!

Re: Merchandise
Hey!  I should do that!  Schism coffee mugs (with no bottom), "Gammon Kruze" action figures (with plenty of sharp edges!), "My pyrokinetic half-brother stayed at the Toland Institute and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!" t-shirts...yeah! ;0

[joshua neff]

i just bopped over to issaries' website & clicked on the "foreign versions" link--holy crap! those covers are gorgeous! it's like watchmen compared to the latest issue of action comics...wow...

i love the merchaniddise idea...ron should do that w/ sorcerer--or better yet, let's have a whole bunch of "narrativist" crap, like t-shirts that say "what's your premise?" or "i'm in authorial stance"...

*ahem*

[Levekius]

Joshua and Jared: if you liked the cover, check out *inside* the book. It is indeed a beautiful book.

Joshua, maybe you understand a bit more what I was talking about regarding HW :smile:

The level of detail, *everything* is just better. That includes the writing, presentation, and most definitly the layout.

Plus did I mention it blends two books in one ? :smile:
They should hire me as spokesperson :smile:


Dav: Thanks you very much for telling me/us all this. That's very nice of you and I really appreciated !

Unfortunately, I'm the last person you want to talk about to get info on distributors :sad:

However, I can tell you that most games make it here. That is: The big guys, plus Atlas, Chaosium, GOO, Talsorian and the very small guys like BTRC all make it.

For some reasons, some people just don't make it. For instance, I have noticed that a few companies seem to rely on Wizard's Attic exclusively, and they don't make it in montreal. Is that possible ?

Even newcomers like Pelgrane press (Dying Earth) make it. I guess if you have connections among the other publishers, they could probably tell you how they do it.

For my part, this little store I told you about told me they will do everything possible to get me Obsidian. If they don't, I'll make sure to contact AC :smile:

Thanks a lot :smile: