(art) taste in cover questions?

[sean2099]

Hi all,

I know that I have some work to do on Divinity before it gets published but I was browsing at Clipart.com and I found some images...(imagine that).  Anyway, they are renascence pictures of the Greek Gods.  Most of them I decided to not use just because they show full view of breasts and "private parts"....Tangent, I have no problem with that in art but I could see some people objecting.

The question is...I found an image that I am considering for a cover but there is an oblique view of a goddess with an exposed breast (areola not showing).  Is that too risque for a cover?  How concerned do people have to be about issues of sexuality, specifically with the portrayal of women?

Thanks,

Sean

[Clay]

That's largely going to be a factor of your target audience, and how uptight you are.  For instance in Sorcerer, given that the game itself is about pretty mature topics, the sort of person who will be offended by private parts won't be happy buying it anyway.  If you're making the sort of game that would appeal to people who snicker at boobies, I don't think that putting such a picture on the cover would be your best bet.  Also ask yourself if having such pictures on the cover will make you uncomfortable. If you'd be embarassed to have your parents, your partner or your priest see your name on the cover of that book, you probably don't want to do it.

In short, I don't think that any of us can answer the question for you.  Your own comfort level with the pictures for this particular game are what should be considered here.

[Thunder_God]

I put a mock up cover of Cranium Rats, people objected to Da Vinci's Perfect Man because it shows 'genitalia'.

Some people will object, it seems, but then again, if Savant and Sorcerer managed to sell fine, and the rest of Exalted with Ross Campbell's art, then I think you could make it pass.

Go with your taste, eventually.

[sean2099]

Thanks for the comments, I am not uncomfortable with it but I didn't know if there was some unwritten code about that sort of thing.  When I do get a subscription at clipart.com, I'll have to play around with the images anyway.  Just to make sure text doesn't look too out of place...that sort of thing.

Thanks,

Sean

[Jake Richmond]

There are going to be people who object to everything. Fuck them. If you thinks its right for your game then do it. I got an amazing amount of crap for the name of my new game (Panty Explosion) on both RPGNet and Flames rising (but not here thank god). I had 30 or 40 people email me or PM me and tell me the name was a mistake, that people would be offended by it or that they would never buy the game because of the name.  Thats fine. If they balked at the name they were never going to like the game anyway. Changing your game, or even its name or what you want on the cover, for fear of what other people might think is (to me) a bad call. If you like the image and think it works for the game then you should use it. if someone looks at the book and says they won't buy it because there is an exposed breast on the cover... well, do you really want that kind of person playing your game?

[baron samedi]

On that topic of cover sensitivity, I'm wondering : What's the usual level of modesty tolerated by American and other English-language distributors (eg. Amazon and bookstores) ? I'm not talking about personal interest, simply wondering about negative market externalities ?

I am finishing the visual layout of a 2nd edition French RPG (Les Chroniques d'Erdor) strongly influenced, visually, by the works of Frank Frazetta. (cf. http://www.die-einherjar.de/) The French are relatively indifferent to partial nudity. Thus I was wondering, since we plan an eventual translation of this book, what level of partial nudity could prevent the book from being acceptable in stores? Would we have to make another cover, as was made for World of Darkness : France ?

I'm not talking about pornography here at all, simply what one would expect from an African-style civilization in the Frazetta spirit.

Thanks!

Erick

[Thunder_God]

Covers with even hints of nudity can get strong reactions, look at the whole Savant and Sorcerer debacle, inside the book it's free-land. Mortal Coil just surprised me earlier today with frontal male nudity inside.

[baron samedi]

Seems worse than I thought. Wasn't Frazetta painting novel covers for Americans? :/

What puzzles me is that many RPG covers evoke bondage pratices (Succubi etc), even games such as Neverwinter Nights, and yet a picture of a breastfeeding woman could provoke a commotion. Go figure. :/  I'll talk about it with my artist, we'll try to remain classical I think...

Thanks!

[Jake Richmond]

Well, as a country we do like our bondage.

Of course what I said above didn't take into account retailers. It's a sad truth that there are some retailers that won't stock your book if they find something objectionable about it. When I tried to sell one local retailer on panty Explosion he didn't even bother to look at the copy of the game i handed him before saying "We don't carry porn". I'd be tempted to say fuck them as well, but maybe you crave retail sales more then I do. i doubt there are many online stores that would care.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Hi Erick,

You should consider that America is a country where politicans have spent funds to create robes to cover up nude statues. We regularly remove the foreskin of infant boys with claims of hygiene, but the practice was started so little boys would be less likely to touch themselves. We freak out over a breast being exposed for less than a second at the Superbowl. It is definitely safest when dealing with America to cover everything up at least on the exterior. Keep in mind... this doesn't mean that all, or even most of America is prudish, but there is a significant enough faction for it to be a legitmate consideration on your part.

[baron samedi]

Thanks Clyde. It's quite the very answer I was looking for. :)

I'm not doing ideology here - I honestly don't care to start a debate about the political or religious issues or America's values, ideological flaming being something I very strongly dislike. For that very reason, I wouldn't produce or buy a game focused on promoting an ideology, whatever it is, and my game certainly isn't doing that.

I'm seeing this as practical stuff : Offending retailers = less clients = unproductive market strategy.

I was simply considering the thing from a market perspective, as I din't know where RPG retailers stand on the issue : America is a land of extreme opposites, Berkeley vs Salt Lake City for example, and from an outsider's perspective such as me (I'm French Canadian), it's not easy to judge something as basic and local as retailers' sensitivies on the partial nudity issue. Now I know better. That factor IS significant. Thanks!

I wouldn't want to needlessly restrict my market, and thus penalize my fellow co-writers and artists who worked hard on this project, for such a dumb question as a cover. I'll thus tend on the cautious side... No nakedness on the cover.

Thanks everyone.

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Hi Erick,

You should consider that America is a country where politicans have spent funds to create robes to cover up nude statues. We regularly remove the foreskin of infant boys with claims of hygiene, but the practice was started so little boys would be less likely to touch themselves. We freak out over a breast being exposed for less than a second at the Superbowl. It is definitely safest when dealing with America to cover everything up at least on the exterior. Keep in mind... this doesn't mean that all, or even most of America is prudish, but there is a significant enough faction for it to be a legitmate consideration on your part.

OT (but then this whole thread has become OT, hasn't it?): This statement is wrong and more importantly insensitive. The practice certainly wasn't started so boys wouldn't touch themselves, and it wasn't started in this country for sure. It's origins predate recorded history. Today, many (perhaps even most) circumcisions are not performed for reasons of hygiene but for religious reasons. In particular, in the Jewish faith, it is an expression of the covenant between Abraham and God and is mandatory.

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

This isn't the proper place for this discussion. Please send me a PM if anyone wants to discuss/argue circumcision it's history and practice.

[baron samedi]

Sorry if I was OT. I thought it was relevant to gauge American retailers' reactions, that's all. Circumcision certainly isn't on topic.

And I'm Jewish, BTW. :/

[Ron Edwards]

I will tell you all, now, what this thread needs in order to be worthy of even the briefest consideration - and hence, not to be sent to the Inactive File, which I am 99.99% intending to do.

It needs you, Sean, to explain exactly what you mean by "publish." You seem to think it involves retailers. At this time, in the RPG hobby, the retailers are a minor - and in some cases obstructive - element of publishing.

If you are bound and determined to get that game of yours into stores so broadly that the percentage of offendable retailers matters, then that is OK - we can discuss which covers and contents have incurred their righteous, snotty wrath in the past.

However, if you are interested in sales and use by actual people, as the first priority, then we can discuss comparable products in more productive arenas of publishing, and the conclusion is certain to be rather different.

In the absence of knowing what you want as a publisher, almost all the discussion up to this point has been worthless gas. I am deadly sick of worthless gas on the Forge lately, especially in this forum. It's up to you to make your desires - one of the two listed above - crystal clear, in the next post.

No one else post. Without a clear response (and don't waste my time with apologies or maunderings about "offense"), then this thread goes elsewhere.

Best, Ron

edited because I screwed up who was the first poster - fixed it now