Apprentice game plans

[Mike Holmes]

Naturally I want to play? Or naturally you're writing it up? ;-)

Put another way, if/when you post it online, you'll put a link up here, right? Right?

:-)

Random thought: Symbology - what are the symbols for each school? Probably not having talismans yet to identify them, do the students wear anything to identify the school that they attend? Do they have sports teams and mascots?

Like the Miskatonic University Fighting Cephelopods? "Go Pods!"

Mike

[Paul Albertella]

Put another way, if/when you post it online, you'll put a link up here, right? Right?

Yes, if and when I do make it public online, I'll put a link here.

Random thought: Symbology - what are the symbols for each school? Probably not having talismans yet to identify them, do the students wear anything to identify the school that they attend? Do they have sports teams and mascots?

Like the Miskatonic University Fighting Cephelopods? "Go Pods!"

Another good question. I think they'll definitely need to have some way of distinguishing and identifying students, maybe even something resembling a school uniform. One of the schools (the self-consciously Stygian on) will certainly insist on its students wearing distinctive black robes, but the others might employ badges or some other emblem. But remember that Apprentices are still likely to have talismans - it's just that they can only se them as Common Magic.

One of my players (Bryan) was asking about sports teams. I really like the idea, but I haven't quite decided how appropriate it is yet - or whether I care if it's appropriate! It does seems reasonable for the schools to have a policy of mens sana in corpore sana, but I'm not sure that sport would play a huge part in school life. In the interests of MGF and given that I have 4 rival schools in Syran, it would be a shame not to have some kind of intermural sporting contest, even if it's just an annual boat race (the Naval Academy might have a bt of an advantage) or something like Triwizard Tournament in HP. Bryan also suggested having debating contests between the schools (an important feature of medieval university life, apparently), which seemed like a great idea...

[Vaxalon]

You can take some cues from medieval universities.  Fencing and duelling were popular as sports, though with somewhat more at stake than personal loyalties; horse racing was very popular in some of the Italian universities.

[Mike Holmes]

Back to the source material, then...wizard dueling. :-)

And, you're right, for spells learned early from a grimoire, they'll have to have the appropriate talisman. OTOH, the schools in question seem to have multiple talismans so there's not one to distinguish them. You might be able to tell the Tenebrous chaps by their rings, but nobody else it would seem. Unless there's a talisman for the "Aid My Master" spell that's common to all in the school or something that's worn as a badge.

Mike

[Bryan_T]

One of my players (Bryan) was asking about sports teams. I really like the idea, but I haven't quite decided how appropriate it is yet - or whether I care if it's appropriate! It

I'll rephrase that in a more useful sort of question:  These institutions have some significant number of young men in them.  This leads to two certainties:
1) They need ways to burn off energy--either provided by their masters or developed on their own.
2) They need ways to compete, show off, and generally channel testosterone.

I've read that young Tibetan monks compete to see who can dry a sheet fastest with their body heat.  Cambride-oxford has their boat race.  In Pamplamona (sp?) you can run with the bulls.  In my university engineering classes competed to pull off the most noteworthy stunts, to win speed-drinking contests, and in mastering all night scavenger hunts.  Put young men together, and they will compete in some manner, and they will do physical things, and often these two combined.

Often tradition channels this in odd ways--in King of Dragon Pass I love the Kite Fighting competition--so unexpected amogst teh barbarian tribes!  What they do in Syran could be just as odd.  To throw out a few examples:

- draining other schools trivial essences
- something like badminton, but pusing an essence around (requires symbolic site to even watch the game)
- hosting massive bonfires
- de-lousing something or somewhere
- Running the walls of the city
- ummm, more when I have more time.

--Bryan

[Paul Albertella]

You can take some cues from medieval universities.  Fencing and duelling were popular as sports, though with somewhat more at stake than personal loyalties; horse racing was very popular in some of the Italian universities.

Fencing, in my game context at least, is principally the domain of the nobility, although duelling in another sense (see below) is an appealing idea. Horse racing is also not a bad idea, but I'd have thought that the students might be more likely to bet on (or try to affect) the outcome of races rather than taking part. For my Syran schools, I guess that boat races would be more likely, given the city's naval traditions - although there is a strong (pre-Malkioni) horse sub-culture in Ralios. Hmmm.... I think I can feel another Common Religion coming on :-)

Back to the source material, then...wizard dueling. :-)

Perhaps a formalised version of the 'duel' could form part of lessons, with apprentices pitting their wills against each other under the close supervision of a master. Bryan's suggestion about a sport that involves pushing an essence around might be pressed into service here. Outside school, however, a more straightforward type of 'duel' might exist, perhaps based around the formal version, but with dirty tricks come to the fore. A popular diversion, no doubt, especially between students from rival schools.

...the schools in question seem to have multiple talismans so there's not one to distinguish them. You might be able to tell the Tenebrous chaps by their rings, but nobody else it would seem. Unless there's a talisman for the "Aid My Master" spell that's common to all in the school or something that's worn as a badge.

I was thinking that the schools all need individual emblems anyway and I',m drawn to the notion that students might be required by law to wear distinguishing robes or a badge at all times to alert the populace to the presence of a partially-trained adept amongst them. Imagine that - having to wear your school uniform all the time. oh, the indignity!

The question of whether talismans for the spells from the Abiding Book are common to all schools is an interesting one. I initially thought that each school might employ its own mode of talisman, even for spells from a shared source, but since the instructions for making talismans are included in the grimoire, presumably this means that the Abiding Book dictates their form. Any suggestions about what that form might be?

These institutions have some significant number of young men in them.  This leads to two certainties:
1) They need ways to burn off energy--either provided by their masters or developed on their own.
2) They need ways to compete, show off, and generally channel testosterone.
<--------------------snip--------------------------->
...To throw out a few examples:

Draining essences, even trivial ones, is likely to be severely frowned upon, along with other forms of tapping - although that doesn't mean that students don't do it. The 'badminton' idea is excellent, but I'm particularly taken with 'running the walls of the city'. An apprentices-only foot race with a historical origin - when the adepts of the city helped to man the walls during a siege, for example - has the makings of a great competition.

This has sparked off another thought, actually: wouldn't it make sense for Schools (or rather, their student bodies - I guess the Schools themselves already have an associated magical entity in the form of their Founder) to have a Guardian entity, like other Gloranthan groups and institutions? This in turn might lead to an officially-condemned-but-unofficially-tolerated "capture the flag" contest between the schools, where students attempt to steal the mascot of a rival school by pitting their wits and magic against its Guardian.

[nellist]

G'day,

Given Safelsters Arkati heritage it is not impossible that some weedy human form of trollball is practiced in arcane society. It's not without precedent, In the Second Age a group of Atroxic flaggelants competed in the Dagori Cup, were soundly beaten up and thoroughly enjoyed it.

There are plenty of Horsey links in Ralios for horse race enthusiasts.

Here in Sydney the local sports teams are associated with their beast animal totem spirits - the Parramatta Eels, the Manly Tigers, the Dragons, the Roosters, North Sydney Bears, Sydney Swans, Socceroos, etc. Not sure what sport this might tie in with in Syran.

Keith

[Vaxalon]

Whatever it is, it needs to be exuberant, pointlessly dangerous, and prone to cheating.

[Mike Holmes]

Perhaps a formalised version of the 'duel' could form part of lessons, with apprentices pitting their wills against each other under the close supervision of a master. Bryan's suggestion about a sport that involves pushing an essence around might be pressed into service here. Outside school, however, a more straightforward type of 'duel' might exist, perhaps based around the formal version, but with dirty tricks come to the fore. A popular diversion, no doubt, especially between students from rival schools.

The question, to me, is what ability characters use to do this. I hesitate to add on an entire new ability as this sort of activity seems, to me at least, to be sorta prerequisite for using magic at all (moving around essence, etc). But that's certainly one solution. Symbolic Sight, as mentioned might be key, but seems more passive. Create Portal of Power might make sense? You're basically opening up a small channel for essence to come through and hit your enemy? I don't have my book handy...what abilities does the standard tapping contest in the wizardry rules suggest as an ability?

Or are we suggesting that the characters simply use whatever spells they know on each other? The character I've come up with doesn't have anything pertinent. Er, no "Rictusempra," "Expelliarmus," or "Serpensortia" or anything of the sort. :-)

What do you envision a wizard duel looking like?

The question of whether talismans for the spells from the Abiding Book are common to all schools is an interesting one. I initially thought that each school might employ its own mode of talisman, even for spells from a shared source, but since the instructions for making talismans are included in the grimoire, presumably this means that the Abiding Book dictates their form. Any suggestions about what that form might be?

I was actually not proposing that they'd be the same between schools, just intra-school. That is, perhaps all of the Imperial College have an Aid My Master talisman that's a wand. If so, the wand could be the de facto badge.

I'm sure that the black rings worn by the members of the Stygian School can serve to identify them on top of their black robes (in case other schools have black robes, too). Just as I'm sure that it's the sort of school where all spells are cast from the same talisman, their rings.

There seems to be a contradiction here, but perhaps I just haven't read closely enough. But, basically, schools have their own sorts of talismans, but books specify talismans too. Perhaps what's meant is that schools, having certain grimoires, must have certain talismans. But then the Abiding book does become problematic in that it must violate some school's descriptions of what it's talismans are like.

So you either have to choose to make talismans all book-based, or you have to choose to make them all school based. Or come up with a way to discern which is which for what. If you go with all book-based, then the question becomes coming up with more listings for talismans. If you go with the school-based, that simply means that the school has it's own interpretation of what the talisman should be like for the Abiding Book and such shared grimoires.

I'm a bit torn on what I'd prefer. On the one hand, I like the idea of grimoires that specify the talisman...after all, potions are talismans, right? And we're not supposing that a potion can be used to cast more than the one spell it's specified for, right? On the other hand, I like the idea of characters being taught to cast lots of spells with a single talisman.

Here's what I'm thinking, then. Have it be book specific, but some books have all spells come from a single talisman, and other spells come from specific talismans. So all the spells from the grimoires of the Stygian College (except for the abiding book) are taught to be used via the black stone rings they wear. But if they go learn the alchemy text, then they have to use the individual potions - they can't use their rings for this.

Make sense?

In this case, however, it means that anyone might have the talisman from another school in theory, if they've managed to somehow learn that magic. So that's loose enough that any association would likely be like, "Oh, that guy has an Onyx Ring, like is used with the spells from Arkat's Shadow, he's probably from the Stygian School. Let's get him!"

Meaning still plenty of room for more official symbols if you prefer.

Draining essences, even trivial ones, is likely to be severely frowned upon, along with other forms of tapping - although that doesn't mean that students don't do it.

Oh, frowned upon probably, against the rules, certainly, but I don't know that the punishment would be severe for, as Bryan puts it, "minor essences." Probably more akin to property damage, I'd think. The big prohibition is against tapping humans (which I believe might get you hung in certain cases). I think that if it's something relatively inconsequential that the penalty would be much less.

This has sparked off another thought, actually: wouldn't it make sense for Schools (or rather, their student bodies - I guess the Schools themselves already have an associated magical entity in the form of their Founder) to have a Guardian entity, like other Gloranthan groups and institutions? This in turn might lead to an officially-condemned-but-unofficially-tolerated "capture the flag" contest between the schools, where students attempt to steal the mascot of a rival school by pitting their wits and magic against its Guardian.

I think that the intention of Hero Bands is for them to be pretty ubiquitous. From my POV playing with them a lot, I couldn't imagine a school that did not have a guardian. And, in fact, belonging to the Hero Band is probably required as well - though I'm also sure that it's one of the "many tests" that the apprentice faces along the road to becoming an Adept. So it might be earlier or later in certain schools depending on the nature of the guardian.

Something the HQ text doesn't explain well, even in how they're named, is that Hero Bands aren't just for heroes, but, according to Greg et. al, most everyone belongs to a couple such organizations. The city has one, and many belong to it. Each district probably has one. Each church has one - that's what makes them holy places. Each Guild probably has one.

Really, the only thing that limits characters from joinning many is the potential in-game ramifications of being in many organizations with crossing agendas. But that sounds like fun to me. The term Hero Band is actually a throwback to the idea that the characters will all be wandering itinerant "Adventurers" and that the only band that's likely to be in affect for them is the one that links them as a group of heroes - hence, Hero Band. What they really should be called is "Communities." And every character should have a few to which they belong.

Yeah, even I have't played that way really yet. Nobody does. But I think it's the right way to play.

Anyhow, for example, with the Imperial College, I'm sure there's some ancient ghost or something that wanders the halls, with which all students must become aquainted their first year. At the Stygian College, however, there's no doubt an essence of darkness that enshouds the castle, and each student is left to their own faculties to find it and get to know it, this marking their passage into "Senior Apprentice" status (meaning talented individuals can do it early). Just as certainly some Undine guards the Naval school, and the rite of passage to becoming part of the Hero Band in question would be throwing new students in the lake. :-)

A giant mural for the Iconographers?

So, sure, these guardians do suggest names for the sports teams. Imperial College Spectres, Stygian Shadows, Naval Academy Muskies (or something else aquatic)....the Icon school doesn't play, they're too artsy to compete in something as crude as sports. :-)

I like the Trollball suggestion. It fits Fred's requirements simultaneously and perfectly.

Mike

[sebastianz]

The question, to me, is what ability characters use to do this. I hesitate to add on an entire new ability as this sort of activity seems, to me at least, to be sorta prerequisite for using magic at all (moving around essence, etc). But that's certainly one solution. Symbolic Sight, as mentioned might be key, but seems more passive. Create Portal of Power might make sense? You're basically opening up a small channel for essence to come through and hit your enemy? I don't have my book handy...what abilities does the standard tapping contest in the wizardry rules suggest as an ability??

But isn't the focus of this different than "normal" play? The apprentices are still discovering their powers. So why not have them take abilities which are prerequisites for the real stuff and later subsumed in the keyword. Just because no one cares about them later doesn't mean they aren't there. Another option is to allow a change in naming of the ability once the student is advanced enough/ graduated a class.

So you either have to choose to make talismans all book-based, or you have to choose to make them all school based. Or come up with a way to discern which is which for what. If you go with all book-based, then the question becomes coming up with more listings for talismans. If you go with the school-based, that simply means that the school has it's own interpretation of what the talisman should be like for the Abiding Book and such shared grimoires.
(...)
Here's what I'm thinking, then. Have it be book specific, but some books have all spells come from a single talisman, and other spells come from specific talismans. So all the spells from the grimoires of the Stygian College (except for the abiding book) are taught to be used via the black stone rings they wear. But if they go learn the alchemy text, then they have to use the individual potions - they can't use their rings for this.
Make sense?

Or you make it a choice for the character. At one point he has to decide whether he is with the "bookers" or the "founders". Perhaps not all schools allow a free choice and force their students. But I think it's cool when you have to walk up to your teachers, having to talismans placed in front of you and pick one. Perhaps in each class. "I knew you'd pick the one from the book. You just don't have it in you."

Concerning guardian spirits, you could also think of student societies, which have their own guardians.Something like GSD.

Just a few thoughts

Sebastian.

[Mike Holmes]

But isn't the focus of this different than "normal" play? The apprentices are still discovering their powers. So why not have them take abilities which are prerequisites for the real stuff and later subsumed in the keyword. Just because no one cares about them later doesn't mean they aren't there.

That's certainly an option that'd work, and it may be neccessary. But I just like the idea of everything moving forward when one becomes an Adept. I mean, such an ability sounds like it could be pretty useful even once you've become an Adept. So...

Another option is to allow a change in naming of the ability once the student is advanced enough/ graduated a class.

That would work, but what does it change to? Basically we'd be adding an ability to these Adept keywords. Which is fine, if it's a local phenomenon. I just wouldn't feel right forcing it into other adept keywords.

But, OK, so, "Wizard Dueling" or "Manipulate Essence" or something?

Or you make it a choice for the character. At one point he has to decide whether he is with the "bookers" or the "founders". Perhaps not all schools allow a free choice and force their students. But I think it's cool when you have to walk up to your teachers, having to talismans placed in front of you and pick one. Perhaps in each class. "I knew you'd pick the one from the book. You just don't have it in you."

Yep that could work. Though, in that case, you have to put down talismans for each book or founder. What's more, if you did this, I'd think that certain spells would still be mandatory from the book - again I'm thinking potions and the like. If someone could cast a spell from a potion using their wand instead, I think they'd choose the wand. Though as Paul points out, for apprentices, even wands have to be recharged after every use. Hmmm.

Concerning guardian spirits, you could also think of student societies, which have their own guardians.Something like GSD.

Oh, absolutely. Er, I think my character will be in Ravenclaw... ;-)

Mike

[Paul Albertella]

The question, to me, is what ability characters use to do this.

I don't think it's necessary to have a single, standardised "Wizard Duelling" ability per se - although there's nothing to stop an individual character specifying an ability like this as part of their keyword. The point is that one might use a variety of abilities (with varying improvisational modifiers) to take part in a duel. Even if we assume that there is a standard form of duel (see below), there's nothing to stop you using you "Focussed Will" ability, or your generic "Manipulate Essence", or even a suitable spell (or for that matter, non-magical ability) as part of the contest. Depends on the contest.

But isn't the focus of this different than "normal" play? The apprentices are still discovering their powers. So why not have them take abilities which are prerequisites for the real stuff and later subsumed in the keyword.

Yes, I think that players adding individual skills like this to the keyword is a perfectly reasonable approach. HQ always makes it clear that keywords are a convenient placeholder for an array of unspecified abilities. The key here is that players, with the Narrators approval, can opt to add (buy) additional specific abilities as part of their keyword. If they don't actually have those abilities, then they simply use their keyword rating instead. This would typically involve some sort of improvisational modifier; thus the advantage of actually specifying a "Wizard Duelling" ability in your keyword would be to remove that modifier (and allow you to develop it beyond the keyword rating, obviously).

I'm not so sure about subsuming them back into the keyword on graduation. It's more likely that the student simply wouldn't use them as individual skills any more, because formal spell-casting is so much more effective. Plus one might quite reasonably use them as augments when casting spells...

What do you envision a wizard duel looking like?

If we're talking about the formalised part-of-lessons version, then think that it might vary from school to school, with some schools shunning the practice altogether. Whatever the form, I envisaged that it would most likely require the participation of an adept - and perhaps a specially enchanted room or apparatus. The adept (or apparatus) might conjure a ball of energy, for example, which the students attempt to control in order to zap their opponent. The key elements should be:

• Focussed application of the participants' willpower
• Manipulation of essences and/or physical laws
• The prospect of pain (or at least discomfort) in the event of defeat
• The involvement of an adept and/or some kind of prop

The reason for the last is perhaps best explained in rules terms: apprentices can only use spells as Common Magic, which means that they can only use them to augment, not as active abilities (unless they have already concentrated on Wizardry, which shouldn't be treated as a given). This is because they lack the ability to attune to a spell node directly; they are effectively accessing the magic by using their master as an intermediary, just as a Common Religion might grant access to magic that originates in one of the Otherworlds, but via an entity who resides in the Mortal World.

Remember, spells are formulae that describe how to manipulate reality. They actually exist as nodes on the Spell Plane; grimores and talismans are merely tools that the adept uses to gain access to those nodes. Apprentices simply lack the training - and importantly the "shaping of their essence" that is the principal purpose of that training - to access them directly. What they have already learnt, however, is some of the basic low-level skills that the adepts use as part of the spell-casting process. So they can do some of the process - provided that they have someone (or something) to establish that all-important connection to the magic in the first place.

We could carry this basic duel concept over into the informal version, which would then require either the participation of an unscrupulous adept or the unauthorised use (or appropriation) of the duelling apparatus. Or alternatively, we could make these duels into more conventional contests that are geared to involve magic. Or just combative contests that happen to be between would-be-wizards. After all, a duel is really just a set of rules that describe the terms and parameters of a contest. 

There seems to be a contradiction here, but perhaps I just haven't read closely enough. But, basically, schools have their own sorts of talismans, but books specify talismans too.

I think that the grimoire should dictate the talisman's form. A school is essentially defined by its use of certain grimoires, so its talismans are defined by the grimoires that it possesses. There might be different versions of the grimoire, though, and they might not always be that precise about the form: if the instructions only specify what symbols you need to inscribe it with, your actual talisman could be whatever you like.

I'm a bit torn on what I'd prefer. On the one hand, I like the idea of grimoires that specify the talisman...after all, potions are talismans, right?

Actually, I don't think that a potion is a talisman, or at least not in the conventional grimoires. A talisman is explictly re-usable for adepts and even the humble Common Magic talismans can be used again and again. It's only orderlies who have to recharge their talismans after each use and this (as I understand it) is because they are based upon a direct connection (through communal worship) to the Saint Plane, rather than via a Spell node. I stole this idea of single-use talismans for my Petty Magic concept, principally to differentiate it as a "degraded" form of magic, which apes real wizardry but doesn't quite get it right. Thus potions are exactly what I had in mind for Petty Magic, but they are likely to play a different role in proper wizardry.

Don't forget also that alchemy has a very bad reputation in the West (and probably elsewhere) because of its association with the God Learners. The Guild of Alchemists in Syran is an underground organisation, its members condemned by the Ecumenical communion for heresy. One idea that I've been toying with is the concept of an elixir: a Church-sanctioned (blessed?) magical preparation in liquid form that a properly trained adept can imbue with a spell or essence. Think of it as sanitised alchemy. Of course, there are plenty of unscrupulour adepts who wouldn't hesitate to engage in the unsanitised version as well...

...Something the HQ text doesn't explain well, even in how they're named, is that Hero Bands aren't just for heroes, but, according to Greg et. al, most everyone belongs to a couple such organizations. The city has one, and many belong to it. Each district probably has one. Each church has one - that's what makes them holy places. Each Guild probably has one.

Yes, I'd already picked up on this and wholeheartedly embrace the idea. I was merely pondering whether this kind of communal entity was already taken care of in a School in the form of its Founder. But now that I've thought about it, I see that it isn't - in community terms, a School may be defined by its Founder, but a School can have a number of Academies which are a different type of community. So I think it makes sense for each Academy to have a Guardian, even if the School has only one Academy.

So, sure, these guardians do suggest names for the sports teams. Imperial College Spectres, Stygian Shadows, Naval Academy Muskies (or something else aquatic)....the Icon school doesn't play, they're too artsy to compete in something as crude as sports. :-)

Too right. They're a right bunch of pansies :-)

I like the Trollball suggestion. It fits Fred's requirements simultaneously and perfectly.

Bah! I might have known Keith would manage to smuggle Trollball in somehow.

Reluctant though I am to countenance the inclusion of such an uncivilised game, I must concede that it makes a certain sort of sick and twisted sense.The Stygian connection in Safelster means that trollish customs like this are likely to be well-known and potentially even assimilated into the culture. I'm not familiar with the rules of trollbal, but I'd propose something like the progenitors of football as exemplified by the Shrovetide football games (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football) in medieaval Europe. A game for the Commoners, of course; the nobility probably play polo. Historically, these games were played between towns, but in Syran, I'd probably have them played between Districts. The beginning of many a riot, I expect...

[Mike Holmes]

OK, that's a much clearer vision on what Wizard Duelling is about. I like where you're going with it, generally - you should keep the idea, and not make it "just wizards duelling." That's not to say that such duels don't occur, just that such an informal duel isn't, well, formalized Wizard Duelling.

How about, for at least some school, the "device" is actually something that depletes when used. I'm thinking like magically enchanted feathers or something that become the ball of energy when required. Reason being, this way there can be a trade in illicitly available instances of such items, so that apprentices might be able to get a hold of some when neccessary. Or perhaps they can pilfer them from the storage cabinet in Snape's office...

That way you get the theoretical control that can be voided under the right (read dramatic) circumstances. :-)

This I can buy into. My problem with the previous version was that it did, in fact, sound like a useful ability past apprenticeship. And I still think it is - it's hard to imagine that such a ball of energy wouldn't be painful to non-wizards. OTOH, if they have to agree to the challenge or something, well even then why should they stop dueling just because they've become apprentices. Looking at the source material, it does, indeed, seem to be something that Adepts do.

I recall the scene from Conan the Destroyer where Mako has a wizard duel with the other wizard involving using their wills to try to open or close the mouth-door-thingie. I've always wanted rules for something like that.

With this version, however, it's not that all Adepts have some ability like this. It's that there's some grimoire or something that's about making the items that allow it to happen, and then the wizards just use their other appropriate abilities to control the duel. Cool. Your "Adept as Conduit" explanation is excellent, and this would just be a case of the item standing in for the Adept in this case.

You know, the more I think about it, there could well be a book of petty spells that affected a wizard duel. Some wizards don't study it, so they never learn it. So you don't have the problem with it being a part of the Adept Keyword, any more than any other spell.

Your points about grimoires make sense. It's quite possible, I suppose, for more than one grimoire to indicate the same talisman. This would explain why the Stygian School only has their black rings listed - both of their books use this as the talisman. I don't know why that wasn't obvious before...perhaps because talismans are always listed by school, and not by grimoire.

As to the potions thing, I was flashing on the recently posted details of the Sedrosa Practice here: http://www.glorantha.com/support/serdrodosa.html

My logic went like, well, if potions are like disposable fetishes for animists, then for wizardry they'd be disposable talismans. The advantage to a potion is that it's freely transferable. That is, with most charms, the practitioner has to work with the person for whom the charm is for to get the spirit in question to stick with that person (if I understand correctly). With a potion, you can hand it to anyone and it'll work upon drinking it.

This is, in fact, what gave me the idea for the disposable items for wizard dueling. I started thinking about it way back when I read about my favorite exception to the "Orlanthi are Theists" observation, the Torvald the Alchemist subcult of Lankhor Mhy. Now, I think that speaks mostly about scrolls, and thinks of Alchemy in the broadest sense. But are we saying that potions simply don't exist then in wizardry? If they do exist, just how do they work? (Elixir's too!) Seems to me to be much like a blessing from a liturgist in a way, just one carried in a bottle for use at the right time.

In any case, Alchemy is dangerous and forbidden? My character soooo wants to see the alchemy book at the library... :-)

I'd really like to see HQ used with potions, because, for once, I think we'll get a sense of them as they are in the literature - powerful magic, not just some disposable concoction, of which everybody carries a dozen doses of different varieties. And those liquids have meaning behind them....


On the subject of founders, the founder is dead and long gone, if I understand it. All that is left of him is his work and the node he discovered. The point being that one learns of him not as an entity, but as a memory. His work remains as the "otheworld entity" that makes this "specialized magic" or "wizardry." Guardians are mundane beings, even if their kind originates in the essence world or somesuch, and as such you can't get a Hero Band out of it. Instead you get cults and religions and schools that have these "lesser" beings as guardians. That is, just as there might be a sword daimone that guards a temple to a warrior god (and said daimone might be related to the god in some way, sure), there would be an essence in the school that's related to the founder's work, the essence node of the otherworld.

Or at least that's the parallel I see.

Anyhow, I'm very excited about this. The book or something mentions "rooms that groan with the weight of the enchantments upon them." That's very cool and evocative. I've always thought that this is how the "wizard's guild" would be, too. Problem is that most systems can't represent it. In D&D, there was the old "Guards and Wards" spell, and then Magic Mouths cast to warn off intruders, but somehow this always seemed too clinical and just not enough. The walls of an ancient school of magic should be soaked with essence, it seems to me.

In HQ, I think this means that there are just loads and loads of "essences," in the building and on the grounds. No, not all unicorns or undines and the like (though those can be found in the Forbidden Forest, too). But just all sorts of essences that represent the sorts of magic done there. Anyhow, some of these, obviously, serve as guardians, and it's for this reason that it's difficult for people to sneak into the school undetected - no doubt in one school, the headmaster gets alerted by the essence when such intrusions happen. In another a ghost puts up a wail of alarm for all to hear. In another a select group of individuals gets an uneasy feeling when somebody's where they should not be. Etc, etc. The defense abilites of these essences may make it actually difficult to get inside."Blessings" may make the place good for studying in.

This explains so much about the nature of magic schools. The point I'm getting at is that each individual school should have, I dunno, dozens? of essences. Many of which should have hero bands associated with them. Perhaps only one, or none of them are meant to be for the entire community at the school. There are probably some that are used by the faculty only. Some, as suggested above, for certain fraternities inside the school.

I mean, just what is Fawkes if not an essence guardian of Hogwarts, or maybe just Gryffindor? He comes in time of need bearing the sword of one of the four founders of the school. The ghosts of Hogwarts are essences right acording to the MRB! Even Peeves. It fits so perfectly - how at the end of Book 5, Nearly Headless Nick explains how they are just reflections of the real people who have since gone on. Same with all the denizens of the pictures. They're not the real people, they're the...essence of he real people. The merfolk may be undines, perhaps the squid, too - that's the classic guardian, used by Sauron's Team to guard the entrance to Moria. The Room of Requirement. The gargoyle that guards the headmaster's office. The Mirror of Erised. All the stuff that guarded the Sorcerer's Stone. The Chamber of Secrets with it's snakey doors.

The basilisk itself! The guardian essence of Salizar Slytherin's continuing efforts to eradicate muggle blood from the wizarding community, still skulking about the place, commandable only by...the Heir of Slytherin....the essence of Lord Voldemort as student Tom Riddle contained in a diary in this case. Tapped himself, he did!

OK, I don't suppose you have to represent every magical being, item, or place as an essence. But I think that it's actually an effective way to do it. Certainly not all of these have associate Hero Bands, even if you do. But the point is that there's tons of opportunity to make the world magical by looking at it this way, and ways to explain all sorts of things that happen in-genre finding the hero bands where they would be interesting to exist.


As for trollball, surely there's source material on it somewhere. Trollpak? Or is it one of those things that's only hinted at?

Mike

[Paul Albertella]

How about, for at least some school, the "device" is actually something that depletes when used. I'm thinking like magically enchanted feathers or something that become the ball of energy when required.

Or a device that needs refuelling with rare and/or expensive ingredients that are difficult to come by. Yes, I think that this would be a useful narrative device.

Here's another idea, though: what if it the formal "Wizard Duel" (i.e. between full adepts only) was a Ritual, normally requiring community support, the right props and other auspicious factors to enact? You might even have a variety of duelling rituals for different circumstances, ranging up to a Duel To The Death version that is banned by all churches and only ever enacted in secret. You could even have a range of duelling apparatus too, so that they could be asked to "choose their weapons" at the start.

You know, the more I think about it, there could well be a book of petty spells that affected a wizard duel. Some wizards don't study it, so they never learn it. So you don't have the problem with it being a part of the Adept Keyword, any more than any other spell.

Yes, this is a good way to approach it. A 'petty grimoire' concerned with the afore-mentioned duelling rituals, which is not attached to a particular School, but is used to a greater or lesser extent by most Schools, perhaps with their own refinements. Because of its limited use outside of the formal duel context, no-one bothers to use it as a 'prime' grimoire. And it also includes a special Apprentice Duelling ritual, which can be be used via special single-shot talismans, but which still normally require a master to activate them... unless you have a friendly adept or an advanced (concentrated?) apprentice on hand to help out. And obviously, Schools might create a stock of these talismans en masse for convenience, keeping them in a locked cupboard in the Headmaster's study...

In any case, Alchemy is dangerous and forbidden? My character soooo wants to see the alchemy book at the library... :-)

Patience, dear boy :-)

I'd really like to see HQ used with potions, because, for once, I think we'll get a sense of them as they are in the literature - powerful magic, not just some disposable concoction, of which everybody carries a dozen doses of different varieties. And those liquids have meaning behind them....

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd forgotten about the Torvald material, which gives us a potentially useful set of game mechanics for Alchemy in HQ. It suggests that potions are essentially spells in liquid form, which makes a lot of sense. Sadly, for your apprentice, this does mean that he'll probably have to wait until he's graduated before he can delve into this forbidden art... unless he can find an alchemically-inclined adept who's willing to teach him :-)

Anyhow, I'm very excited about this. The book or something mentions "rooms that groan with the weight of the enchantments upon them." That's very cool and evocative. I've always thought that this is how the "wizard's guild" would be, too...

Yes, that particular phrase was one of the things that started me down this road in the first place. That and the one about an apprentice's typical "penultimate test": opening the door to the school's magic room by himself.

In HQ, I think this means that there are just loads and loads of "essences," in the building and on the grounds.

I don't know about "loads and loads", but more than one or two, certainly.

Actually, there's a very interesting section about using essences in the HQ rules, which includes the concept of a guardian essence and describes how an essence's functions can be learned as spells (via single-use talismans). I think that this mechanic would make a lot of sense for the School guardians. Other essences bound into the School buildings might also act in this way, but they'd be unlikely to provide spells since this weakens them in a way that cannot be replenished without a ceremony of veneration. For the School guardian, this wouldn't be a problem: they'd be recharged by the School Assembly every week :-)

OK, I don't suppose you have to represent every magical being, item, or place as an essence. But I think that it's actually an effective way to do it.

It has a lot of possibilities, I agree. However, I think that there's also an important role for spells that are specifically intended to be permanent or at least persistent until activated (i.e. enchantments or wards). A shame that HQ ducks out of describing a permanent enchantment mechanic, only describing it as "a special and arcane form of magic" that is "outside the scope of the basic rules". Guess we'll just have to invent our own mechanics, eh?

[Mike Holmes]

Or a device that needs refuelling with rare and/or expensive ingredients that are difficult to come by. Yes, I think that this would be a useful narrative device.

No, I didn't make my intent clear. It's not to make it expensive to use or something, it's so that they can get the ability to do it without having to steal the same darn device each time. I mean, unless it's easy to steal for some reason (and that seems pretty unlikely), it means that they aren't often going to be able to duel outside of school.

But if they can purchase a means of dueling on the black market or something, then it's just that they've made a decision to do something wrong (and perhaps expensive, yes), but can duel any time they need to do so.

Here's another idea, though: what if it the formal "Wizard Duel" (i.e. between full adepts only) was a Ritual, normally requiring community support, the right props and other auspicious factors to enact? You might even have a variety of duelling rituals for different circumstances, ranging up to a Duel To The Death version that is banned by all churches and only ever enacted in secret. You could even have a range of duelling apparatus too, so that they could be asked to "choose their weapons" at the start.

Is that in addition to, or instead of the normal method? Hmm. I like it. Think of it as a "practice heroquest," with the real quest having even greater effects. Not just a ritual, but a whole heroquest. This would explain where dueling comes from, of course, it's about when Founder X went to the other side, and discovered how to fling essence at one another connecting to the fourth node of Malthalas, using beezlenut oil, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, this is a good way to approach it. A 'petty grimoire' concerned with the afore-mentioned duelling rituals, which is not attached to a particular School, but is used to a greater or lesser extent by most Schools, perhaps with their own refinements. Because of its limited use outside of the formal duel context, no-one bothers to use it as a 'prime' grimoire.

Or, maybe some do. Perhaps the full version for Adepts allows one to heroquest to a dueling place on the hero plane where tremendous energies can be wielded, and a true test of wizardly fortitude can be made. This way, anyone can do it if they do the quest, it's difficult and dangerous even to get to the dueling place in the full version, and this means apprentices won't have done it (but could in a very theoretical way).

And it also includes a special Apprentice Duelling ritual, which can be be used via special single-shot talismans, but which still normally require a master to activate them... unless you have a friendly adept or an advanced (concentrated?) apprentice on hand to help out. And obviously, Schools might create a stock of these talismans en masse for convenience, keeping them in a locked cupboard in the Headmaster's study...

Now we're talking. Again, this would be ritual elements for the practice heroquest, which all apprentices can do in theory, if they just read the steps from the book.

Well, I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd forgotten about the Torvald material, which gives us a potentially useful set of game mechanics for Alchemy in HQ. It suggests that potions are essentially spells in liquid form, which makes a lot of sense. Sadly, for your apprentice, this does mean that he'll probably have to wait until he's graduated before he can delve into this forbidden art... unless he can find an alchemically-inclined adept who's willing to teach him :-)

Well, to be sure. But then again, I'll bet there's some hedge wizard Common Magic alchemy as well, no? Or the alchemy spells from the grimoires learned as common magic? Etc. Lot's of possibilities... :-)

I don't know about "loads and loads", but more than one or two, certainly.

Season to taste, of course.

Actually, there's a very interesting section about using essences in the HQ rules, which includes the concept of a guardian essence and describes how an essence's functions can be learned as spells (via single-use talismans).

Aha! That's what I was talking about before! Knew I wasn't totally off my rocker.

I think that this mechanic would make a lot of sense for the School guardians. Other essences bound into the School buildings might also act in this way, but they'd be unlikely to provide spells since this weakens them in a way that cannot be replenished without a ceremony of veneration. For the School guardian, this wouldn't be a problem: they'd be recharged by the School Assembly every week :-)

Exactly, exactly. I think it's fascinating to "discover" how to describe all of these things with the various HQ structures. Most fascinating because of how well it seems to work (or has in actual play in some cases).

It has a lot of possibilities, I agree. However, I think that there's also an important role for spells that are specifically intended to be permanent or at least persistent until activated (i.e. enchantments or wards). A shame that HQ ducks out of describing a permanent enchantment mechanic, only describing it as "a special and arcane form of magic" that is "outside the scope of the basic rules". Guess we'll just have to invent our own mechanics, eh?

Actually those rules do exist already. HQ does not duck. It merely doesn't describe the process well. But, simply, making a magic item is a heroquest. Period. For animists, it's even a very simple heroquest, and, really, all animists ever do is make magic items. They do not have any magic that they "cast" or anything like it. They simply have objects with spirits in them, and the spirits to their thing at the behest of the animist. And it takes a heroquest (or going to a "Landscape being" - a mundanequest, if you like) to get such a spirit. The fetish one is dead simple, you just open the otherworld and grab a passing spirit and put it into the prepared object. As are most quests to get simple magic abilities.

For theists, and animists, however, the process is basically the same if they want objects. You open up the otherworld and get the object you take with you "blessed" for theists, or "enchanted" for wizards. Mechanically it's the Heroquest Challenge, success in getting an ability meaning you get the new object in question.

So, we want to make a classic magical sword at the college? Well, we read up on how some ancient wizard once did it (hopefully not Zzabur), and follow his trek into the left-hand spiral essence twist node at crystal rock on the hero plane (not the essence plane, we can only channel energy back and forth there), and then we cold-forge the sword there, and then have the cold hounds breath on it, and....seven stations later, we roll to temper the sword in the essence of the sun atop the tallest mountain in the world (no, not Kero Fin, the tallest mountain in the world to a Ralian), and, if successful, viola! You get an ability like "Blade of Coldest Frost 15W."

Now, while wizards are no animists, it's clear that they do contain essences and use them. Not a totally dissimilar process, one would think. Like the Stygian College's famous Moat of Fire, where some wizard went off to a volcano, captured a massive amount of essence of fire, and brought it back and poured it into the moat where it's existed ever since protecting the castle from those who would steal inside. Or whatever.

Again, I think that all that's missing from any of this is merely examples. The HQ thing is right from Greg himself on the rules list (I paraphrase, "If you want a magical sword, you go on a heroquest to the heroplane, and bring a sword along, and then it becomes just like Humakts sword - though less powerful since it's an emulation of such" - BTW, if you want the "real" object, you can go to the god plane and steal it from the god in question). But use and abuse of essence I'm extrapolating from what's there already about tapping and such things as unicorns, etc, etc.

Here's another way to approach a great deal of this campaign. Answer the rarely asked question, "What does a wizardry heroquest look like, and what's it for?" Outside of the ones we know about to get spells and such. Keep in mind the difference between getting things from the essence plane, and getting them from the essence landscape in the hero planes. Also keep in mind that wizardry quests do not involve the body actually going to the otherworld, IIRC. What happens are all mental perigrinations, with essence being tunneled back to the mundane world for use. Thus, when it seems to the wizards that they're thrusting the blade into the cold crystals of crystal rock, in the mundane world they're thrusting the real blade into a bucket of ice cut from the lake. Thus you get all the alchemical ritual stuff you're used to in wizardry, but the heroquest portion itself is explaining what's happening, well, essentially, to the people and objects involved in the ritual.

Or at least that's what I'm getting from my reading. Seems pretty cool to me.

Mike