Gencon Feedback [Designers/Boothies]

[Gregor Hutton]

Gregor: Your missing copy was the one you gave to me.

D'oh! Yes, that tallies up. No problem Brennan. Sorry, my head was fried.

I could live without getting cash out, but I have to say that for me it was good this year to do it. Just my two cents.

Forge branded bags would be great, just plain white with a red forge logo (like the badge we had for demos) would be ideal. I'd happily put some more dollars into the booth fee to cover it.

[Nathan P.]

My .02 is that I didn't need the daily cashout this year, and I hopefully won't need it next year.

Maybe a cash-only cashout would be a workable solution? I have no idea if that makes it easier or harder on the paperwork.

I would also put in some cash for Forge bags. Or maybe bags with the Forge logo that say "support independent publishing". (yes, I realize that I just volunteered to make this happen if we decide to get bags)

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Would this problem be alleviated by simply making it a policy of: Don't partake of "cash-out" unless you need to. I ended up not bothering with the cash out any day, and I wouldn't need to in the future. Brennan, would it help if you were only cashing out a few people each day as opposed to nigh everyone? Clinton and Vincent, would a cash out on day one only satisfy your needs, alleviating the burden for the rest of the con? I'm sure there's a middle ground here. I'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

[iago]

I'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

Well, anecdotally, I personally spent about twice as much as I would have been inclined to spend if it had been cash-only.  All of my booth purchases (around about $200 total) were done by credit card.  I'm sure I'm not alone.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Would this problem be alleviated by simply making it a policy of: Don't partake of "cash-out" unless you need to. I ended up not bothering with the cash out any day, and I wouldn't need to in the future. Brennan, would it help if you were only cashing out a few people each day as opposed to nigh everyone? Clinton and Vincent, would a cash out on day one only satisfy your needs, alleviating the burden for the rest of the con? I'm sure there's a middle ground here. I'm guessing that no-credit-cards is not an appetizing solution; Brennan, ballpark, what percentage of sales were via credit card?

It's not just a question of affordability, although that plays into it some. As is, I didn't need the cashout for hotel and whatnot, but I used it for game expenditures, as I have no budgeted income for that.

What it is also a question of is independence. I appreciate so very much how the booth was run and how Brennan and co. took care of the cash register. I pay 10% of my book's cover cost for that, and that's great. My notion of how I want to make my financial decisions is based on the past - with nightly pay-outs - and someone else changing that decision for me is not something I consider an ok invasion of my independence.

[Justin D. Jacobson]

What it is also a question of is independence. I appreciate so very much how the booth was run and how Brennan and co. took care of the cash register. I pay 10% of my book's cover cost for that, and that's great. My notion of how I want to make my financial decisions is based on the past - with nightly pay-outs - and someone else changing that decision for me is not something I consider an ok invasion of my independence.

I'm literally not understanding that sentence. Are you saying there is no middle ground? What part of the nightly pay-out is essential/important for you? You sell books through IPR on their website and they pay out every quarter, which is (if I understand your point correctly) an invasion of your independence that you're comfortable with.

[iago]

I'm literally not understanding that sentence. Are you saying there is no middle ground? What part of the nightly pay-out is essential/important for you? You sell books through IPR on their website and they pay out every quarter, which is (if I understand your point correctly) an invasion of your independence that you're comfortable with.

I've got a bit of confusion there too, I admit, and can only really examine it through the lens of my own experience ... in my mind, I'm trading the "independence" of getting my immediate cash gratification and a percentage of my cover price, for the benefits of a) not having to be the one making the sales, b) running the booth, and c) doing fulfillment of any stripe.  If I were to take that independence back, I honestly think I'd net fewer sales, so, despite getting my cash right away, I'd be getting less in the long haul.  I'd rather wait, and get more.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Justin and Fred,

Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued. I can clarify them:

- I want to buy things at the con.
- I need money to do that.
- We've had nightly payouts in the past.
- Therefore, I don't want to break with tradition and end them for those who want them.

As for using IPR normally, I chose to do that for my needs which I evaluated myself. I had other options which were viable, and they were the one I wanted. At the booth, I have no other options - if I want to be part of the community I helped create, I have to abide by the rules of the people who are (awesomely and wonderfully) running sales. If those rules change our shared cultural values, then I consider that a loss of independence, and I consider it a personal loss, as well.

[iago]

Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued.

Wasn't asking you to.  You didn't say "I don't want to do this because it makes me feel bad'; the way I read your initial response suggested it was something with reasons in it.  Thus and therefore, my "hm, this doesn't make sense to me" response.  Clarifying was definitely the goal!  And thus:

I can clarify them:

- I want to buy things at the con.
- I need money to do that.
- We've had nightly payouts in the past.
- Therefore, I don't want to break with tradition and end them for those who want them.

That's cool and understandable.  I'm a noob here, so I had zero expectation of there being any payout policy whatsoever -- in fact, it's only in this thread that I've learned that such a thing was considered practicable or possible, let alone actually done!  And coming from my noob perspective, I'd want to support you getting you want ... though I also don't want to see the maintenance of requirements that force newer folk (e.g., IPR) to have to go a separate way.  I mean, yeah, cultural values are what they are and deserve care and respect and nurturing, but cultures also change as they incorporate new members... don't they?  I guess that's where I'm coming from: just looking for grounds on which compromise can occur instead of blanket prohibition.

[Justin D. Jacobson]

Justin and Fred,

Asking me to justify my feelings is not necessarily productive or helpful - they're feelings, and as such, can't be argued.

To clarify, I wasn't asking you to justify your feelings. I wanted to understand the specifics of your distaste of a no cash-out policy. We need to understand what it is people have a problem with if we're to endeavor to fashion a solution that everyone can live with.

Ironically, as I mentioned, I have no stake in this issue. I'm not a part of the cash-out process, and I don't avail myself of it either. At any rate, I expect this is something that can be tabled until, oh, 11 months from now. Who knows what will be happening by next GC?

[Valamir]

Nightly payouts are a collosal pain in the ass.  Period.  Unless you were one of the people who, for the last several years had to do them (principally myself, Julie, and Danielle)...you have no conception of what a nightmare they are.  I take it as a compliment actually that some folks would like to see a return to that...because it suggests we did a good job and the transaction was fairly frictionless for you...but man-oh-man it wasn't frictionless for us.

It was a nightmare with 12 companies to worry about and all cash in the drawer.  It was a bigger nightmare with 25 companies to worry about and a handful of personal checks.  With 40+ companies, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of sales being Credit Card sales, a cash register that had significant programming problems the first day, and IPR taking a percentage it goes way beyond nightmare into a whole new category of pain.

I totally sympathize with people who rely on the payout to meet expenses...but seriously...I'd rather personally float you a loan until after the Con and have you pay me back out of your payout than to try and return to nightly cash outs...its THAT big of a deal.

I also sympathize with Clinton's independence angle.  As much as I admired the booth in its operation and appearance this year, a part of my brain missed the old days where the cash box was an envelope in Jake Norwood's hip pocket and perfect bound books on the shelf were a minority.  As nice as the wire racks are...I really missed the DIY-ness of Paul's hand made wooden shelf.  The booth has come a long way but along the way we've had to sacrifice some of the indie-punk attitude we started with.  Nightly cash outs is IMO the next sacrifice we have to make.

Have to...or be prepared to limit next year's booth to only 20 companies and return to a cash-only policy...which doesn't strike me as a good thing.

Now potentially Alexander can find a way to run the cash register data into a spreadsheet and crunch the calculations and reconciles quickly and easily...maybe...and if so, then great.  But if not...choices will need to be made.  Cause I ain't never doing nightly cash outs by hand for 40+ companies...no way.

[Iskander]

Ralph,

Just to confirm - the register is a Sharp XE-A202, right?

I am confident we can arrive at a reasonable solution without breaking hearts, minds or banks. At the very least, I'm prepared to commit to doing the maths by hand for as many companies and individuals as necessary next year. I should put my maths degree to some use.

- Alexander

[John Harper]

As a first-timer, by Forge booth experience was 100% positive in every way. YOU all made it that way for me. I cannot thank you enough. I hope I was able to contribute to the goodness of the booth in some small way this year. I learned a great deal from the veterans, and I look forward to putting it into practice even more next year.

About cashouts: I really really don't want to deal with cashouts for my game every night. Does it help if some sellers opt out of the nightly cashout process? Maybe if we have an advance count of who wants nightly cashouts and who doesn't, we can better anticipate the potential scope of the task.

[Brennan Taylor]

Clinton: I understand and respect your position. I dig the indie thing, and I want to foster that feeling as much as I can.

I also am not going to go through the cashout process next year if it is going to be as big a pain as it was this year. Like Ralph, I will happily float people a personal loan in order to avoid having to figure the cashouts, with the checks, credit cards, and over 40 different companies to keep track of.

If Alexander and I work out some method to continue the practice, I will be happy to do so. I have a rather immense list of things to keep track of, however, and the more simplification I can do, the better.

I think we can revisit this issue as we start planning GenCon '07. I don't want to hash it out now, and Alexander and I will try to work out a system before we start talking about next year, too.

[Scott "DensityMan" Chevalier]

Greetings all,

I haven't seen this addressed yet in the post and didn't get a chance away from my booth or running scheduled events to check it out myself - How was the demo area for full-blown ("traditionally built"?) RPG games? Were those demos limited to combat examples with a touch of setup for time?  Did having only one person to demo that type of game to impact the effectiveness in your opinions? 

While we had plans to run in-booth demos, between spieling and the table games I just didn't get around to it (Ron I still owe you a session sometime as promised by one of my other partners - tried to grab you during a couple lulls, but when I was free you were busy

Your booth seemed to be packed to the brim from open to close; which was impressive to behold. I had enough moments of freedom to peer around the curtain and hover near the edges of the Forge booth to soak up some of the excitement, I just didn't get as much time as I would have liked to see for myself what games/type-of-games were being demoed in booth. 

Scott