Theft

[Steven Stewart]

Just want to point out in 10+ posts, no one has said that outright pirating is wrong. Only breaking it and not giving money if you like it. One thing if the person who owns the property is OK with the pirating (as in many bootlegs of the gratefuldead for example) or with some of the indie's who give permission under the various liscenes (i.e. give their game for free but you gotta pay for the print edition and the art etc. TSOY comes to mind).

Somehow there is an undercurrent that if it was a faceless corperation that it would be OK, or am I reading something wrong? I mean the subject says it all, yet noone has addressed that part of it. I think for example one of the things we could do as a community is support the idea that pirating is wrong. For example I just sent some stuff to my game group. All of that stuff is obtainable from the internet legally - such as Legends of Alyria and the .txt file of TSOY some articles from this site, all I did was save them the time to go out and get it themselves. Other things I have like a pdf of Questors, I didn't give to them. I could have, but I didn't - its pirating - plain and simple. And the problem is what pirating is OK? Where do you draw the line? Maybe that is a discussion that is worthwhile having, I don't know, but at some point everyone who goes from consumer to producer is going to have to ask themselves some questions, some personal ones, about their behaviors as a consumer vs. as a producer.

Cheers,

Steve

p.s. not trying to be preachy, apologies if I am, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well then its a duck.

[Peter_Hollinghurst]

The problem is that most of the methods by which people get pdfs without paying for them is via peer to peer or similiar networks-its very hard to stop the availability of files on these networks, as there is usually no single 'source' that can be found for the file, instead they are distributed over a loose and ever changing network. So regardless of your stance on their availability they will still be available, and measures to prevent this will tend to become quickly obsolete. Where people are making (or trying to make) a profit (what I would regard as actual piracy btw, rather than file sharing, which while breaking copyright does not involve making a profit by it) such as on ebay it is marginally easier to stop since there is a single distribution agent involved that can kick the abuser/pirate off.
Personally I think that finding methods to convert downloaded pdfs into potential POD sales makes more sense than trying to persuade people that downloading without permission is wrong.
I also suspect that there is a dimension to the whole file sharing issue that worrying about it as piracy misses-people always like to try before they buy. Quite frankly, unless a free cut down version is made easily available, people will just feel they could be wasting their money on a product they will never use if they just go right ahead and buy it. Especially in a market glutted with variable quality products. Surely it is better to view file sharing as a marketing opportunity (something you can actually do something about and take advantage of) rather than sales disaster/crime that you probably can't do anything about?

[Jake Richmond]

I didn't really talk about whether I think illegal downloads are right or wrong because to me that wasn't the issue at hand. If someone wants to tallk about that, then I'm willing to talk. I'm sure we could have a good discussion. But really what I wanted to discuss was what Matt and I should do in our current situation. To restate my original questions:

Is this a problem?
What (if anything) should we do about it?

I've gotten some good feedback here and other places where I asked these questions, and we're currently working toward what I hope will be a reasonable solution.

[Ken]

I didn't really talk about whether I think illegal downloads are right or wrong because to me that wasn't the issue at hand. If someone wants to tallk about that, then I'm willing to talk. I'm sure we could have a good discussion. But really what I wanted to discuss was what Matt and I should do in our current situation. To restate my original questions:

Is this a problem?
What (if anything) should we do about it?

I don't really have any new or original thoughts here, but my opinion is:

a) Try to get the sites that are distributing your game illegally to stop.
b) Maybe replace the full game PDF with a stripped down version to act as a teaser.
c) Your game is now out there. Your game is in the hands of a bunch of people now (whether they paid for it or not), so take advantage of that. Start pumping out the supplements. More game rules, more info, more art. Create things the fans can't live without. Dude, your game is about young chicks in miniskirts fighting other young chicks in miniskirts...how can you go wrong? PRODUCE!!! PRODUCE!!! PRODUCE!!! Turn your game into a gaming line. If those with your game really like it, they'll buy more stuff for it.
d) Don't make any more PDF games. You probably guessed this one. I've been struggling with whether to make my game available as a PDF, and you have pretty much made up my mind for me. Thanks.
e) Offer the people who illegally downloaded the game a chance to make it up to you by buying a high-priced supplement or something. Good luck with that.

Anyway, its very likely that this did hurt your sales, but we will reall never know. Your sales would've eventually dipped anyway; maybe this was its time. Its also likely that a lot of the people who downloaded your game illegally wouldn't have bought it; there are a lot of trophy-hunters and schwag-hounds out their, just looking for bragging rights. The best you can hope for now is that you've turned those criminals into fans willing to shell out some dough for more of your game.

I really hope this works out good for you in some way. This is a situation that could/did/may happen to the rest of us, trying to make a little cash doing something we love.

Good luck,

Ken

[David Artman]

Has anyone considered doing the thing some music artists do, which is to flood file sharing sites with a "version" of their song that is the same MB size, but is just the chorus looped 10 times, with maybe the intro.

In book terms you'd be putting out a version of the PDF with the exact same name and size, but with only the Intro, a few sample pages, and a repeating filler (one or two full-page pieces of art would do it fairly easily). Get it to the same file size (could take tweaking) and flood.

Worth trying? I know that, the few times I tried to download a song off the radio and found such filler songs, I quit trying to find a good version.

Just a thought....
David

[Jake Richmond]

UPDATE

Just this morning we've made some real progress on this, so I thought I'd share and let everyone know what we are doing.

Following the advice of several people I created a Tryout PDF of Panty Explosion, something I'd been meaning to do since it was suggested to me at Gencon. Its available on our site now. I contacted each of these file sharing sites where I had found Panty Explosion and asked that they replace the file with theis new PDF. I was polite as possible. Previously when I had contacted these sites only 4 of the 7 responded. So far I've gotten one response back, from ShareVirus. They were incredibly polite and immediatly took down the file and replaced it with the new PDF.

Heres  a link to the new ShareVirus page:http://sharevirus.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3697
And heres a link to the forum topic: http://sharevirus.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3697

Again I found them to be very polite and proffesional. It was nice.I haven't as yet heard back from any of the other sites. I have recieved apology emails from about  half dozen people who say they have stopped sharing the file or have started sharing the new PDF. I wasn't expecting that at all. So thats nice.

We're following up on many of the other suggestions that were made here as well. We recognize that rather then trying to stop this (which we can't) we should instead embrace it and try to direct it. Heres what else we're doing:

Posting the trial version on other share sites and community forums. I'm just starting this.

Putting up a paypal link just for people who want to pay for downloaded copies. This will be up soon.

Adding a page to the full version of the PDF that asks users to not share the file and to consider paying for it if they've gotten without paying for it.

Treating the whole thing as promotion rather then theft and trying to use this network of sites our advantage.

Any other suggestions?



Jake Richmond
atarashigames.com

[Ron Edwards]

Wow!

Jake, you're schoolin' the rest of us. This is a great thread.

Best, Ron

[andrew_kenrick]

I agree with Ron - I think this is a great way of looking at it, as a promotional tool rather than as lost sales. It's kinda like harnessing the viral power of filesharing for your own ends. Keep us posted as to how it pans out - let us know if you see sales spikes or get responses or paypals or whatever.

[David C]

I've heard this topic discussed a lot. I do think piracy is a problem, and here's why. People justify it. Period. You did it at the beginning, "I always buy what's worth buying." The problem with justification is it is a slippery slope, "Well, we played the game for a month, but stopped, so it wasn't worth paying for." "Well, we played the game for 3 months, but we wouldn't have played it if we had to pay for it, it wasn't worth paying for." "I don't pay for RPGs at all because if I had to, I wouldn't play them." 
There's one thing that's in common with all of those, they rely solely off of individual opinion of your copyright, so give them a reason that isn't opinion. For example, printed books (I know it might not be feasible or smart for you, it's just an example.) Everybody recognizes they are "getting something worth paying for" when it's material. That's what makes piracy dangerous, people don't realize they are taking something very real, making it stealing. In fact, terming it "piracy" was a mistake, it should be called stealing.

To stop pirating, my only suggestion was/is to give them a motivation they can't get for pirating it. Maybe mail actual buyers a nice poster (make sure you figure it into your costs.) Or you could make a mailing list that only past purchasers belong to, which you mail a special promotional class/item/story, every month.

Yes, I've pirated things in the past, but I've clamped down on this behavior after I realized that my justifications were hurting those who made what I loved - even if the corporations are bottlenecking most of the profits.

I hope this helps you. :)

[Jake Richmond]

It is a slippery slope. And I know you arn't pointing a finger at me, but let me restate this anyway (because I''ve gotten some really nasty emails about this). As someone who does make use of download sites like the ones I've been talking about I know this very well. I can't and won't justify it, in a similar way to how I couldn't and didn't justify smoking back when I did that. But I still do it ( Although much less now that I',m on the receiving end of it).

And I don't really expect others not to either. And it is wrong. Its theft. So in asking how I can protect my own product I certainly feel like I'm being hypocritical. So be it. 

Anyway, I think offering something special to people that actually pay for the dowbnload is a cool idea. I'd prefer if it were something that could be included in the download itself instead of something physical, but that opens it up to be pirated as well. But its a good idea. I'll think on that.

Just to clarify, because a lot of people don't seem to know, we do sell a print version of the Panty explosion book. It does outsell the PDF. I completely understand the appeal of a print book, and I prefer to own a book over a PDF. Certainly a lot of people feel the same way. PDf is still a long way from replacing print. But the people who buy our PDF and the people who buy our book seem to be different people. A different audience who want a different product or experience. Theres a lot of crossover of course. We offer a bundle deal where you can buy both for a reduced price (and get a PE postcard as well. theres a bonus you cant get by stealing it). But I think that there are a lot of people who prefer to have the book as a PDF.


Anyway, I'm open to more suggestions on how people who have actually paid for the book can be rewarded.

[Darren Hill]

To David C. and others who point out it's piracy, and suggest tose doing it should be ashamed and should stop...
How exactly is downloading a PDF, reading it, and then discarding it or dumping into a personal archive you never look at again (which is what a lot of download collectors do), any different from:
a) borrowing a printed book from a friend and then returning it
b) borrrowing a book from a public library?

This really isn't quite so straight forward as "piracy is evil and wrong and everyone doing it is a bad person." The digital age is raising new questions about copyright and intellectual property, and these are hard questions that will take society a while to work out.

In the meantime, I think Jake's current solution is an excellent one.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey guys,

The ethics conversation is off-topic. We had one guy remind us that it's a real issue, and that was a good thing to mention, and it was done.

Debate about the ethics of downloading/piracy/et-cetera elsewhere.

Best, Ron

[Jake Richmond]

Agreed.

The Panty Explosion demo PDF is now up on about 20 download sites. I'm not really sure ho well its being distributed. we'll see. 3 of the 7 sites where I orginally found the game have taken it down at my request. 2 put up the Demo in its place. I'll take what I can get.

I found a discussion on a German forum about our theft problem and the approach that we are taking. The Germans seem to approve.

I think for my next game (which I am deep into working on right now) I'll make the PDF free, but as suggested leave out the art and other things that make the book unique. I don't know if I would have taken that approach with Panty explosion (or any other future game) but I think it will work well with this game.

[GregStolze]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Ransom method.  It was intended, more or less, as the silver bullet for the .pdf piracy werewolf. 

Fundable.org has raised its minimum pledge to $10, which puts an onion in the ointment, and it doesn't work if the reader has no reason to trust the quality of the writer, and I don't think it would work for something really huge (with a correspondingly big ransom)... but with those caveats in place, you could consider PE as a loss leader now.  The people who've pirated it are more likely to ransom out your next product.

-G.

[Jake Richmond]

Wow. Thats really neat. I think I will be using the Ransom method for my next game. I really like how that works.