Theft

[Jake Richmond]

Is PDF sharing a problem you are concerned about? I wasn't until recently. In the last few weeks sales of the Panty Explosion PDF have dropped from about 3 copies a day to 1 a week. Around the same time Panty Expolosion started appearing on several download and file sharing sites. Here's a link to one: http://sharevirus.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3697


Yes you can download the game from there. Knock yourself out. The cats already out of the bag. I'd hope that if you download it and like it you would buy it.

Here's the link to the forum topic about Panty Explosion from their forum, complete with my comment: http://forum.sharevirus.com/viewtopic.php?t=28279&highlight=panty+explosion

In case the topic gets deleted here's what I said:

Hey. Thank you for stealing my game. I hope you enjoy it. Atarashi Games is a very small company started by myself and Matt Schlotte just last July. Matt and I split the profits on every copy of Panty Explosion we sell. Matt uses his share to support his wife and two daughters and to go to school. I use my share to pay my medical bills. This income is imortant to us.

I'm not going to pretend like i don't make use of sites like this and download stuff as well. I do. But if I find something I like and use I buy it. Money from Panty Explosion dosen't go to a faceless organization who then share only a small percentage of it with the creators. Likewise, Panty Explosion isn't a product thats been out for a long time and already sold a ton of copies. Panty Explosion is a new product from a small business. It's just Matt and myself doing our best to put out good games on a really small budget. Neither of us are rich. Shit, I'm the poorest person I know.



If you like the game please buy it. Panty explosion is available as a book or PDF from our site at http://atarashigames.com/

You can also get Panty Explosion from these stores:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=13617
http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?productsid=1772&source=Product%20Browsing
http://key20.com/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=62
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=ATR01

Or check your local game, comic, anime or music store.


Thanks,

Jake Richmond (the creator, owner and publisher of Panty Explosion)

atarashigames.com
jake@atarashigames.com

So.... I feel like an ass because I do use sites like this. I steal music, movies, comics, porn and all kinds of stuff. I do. But if I like something, if I think something is worthwhile, then I do go out and buy it. If I like a song I will buy it from Itunes or Rhapsody. If I like a movie I will get the DVD. If I like a comic I will buy it. Especially comics, because most of the comics I read are small press titles and I know that every copy they sell counts big.

This is of course part of the challenge of selling games, and PDFs especially. Its unreasonable to expect that everyone who plays a game will own a copy of the game. In a group of 5 players maybe one or two will own a book. If you have a PDF of a game you want to play it's natural that you'll share it with the people you play with. I do that all the time. But this is different. This is theft.

So here's my questions:

Should I do anything about this? If so what should I do?

Has anybody else had similar problems? And if so what did you do?


I appreciate any advice or feedback.

Thanks,

Jake Richmond
atarashigames.com

[Jake Richmond]

demonoid.com lists 343 downloads for the Panty explosion PDF. Thats more then we've sold by the way.

[JakeVanDam]

Ussually these sites are pretty good about removing material if the owner asks them to, but that may  put out an image you don't want if you use these sites yourself.

Pehaps whenever you updat the pdf, you could add a bit about vistiting your site for games support, and a polite request that those who have 'acquired it through unofficial means' purchase a copy if they've enjoyed it? You'd definately want to make it clear that you aren't suggesting that people who've bought it already send you money, and not piss off those who have torrented it ('cuz then they'll just keep their free copy and not send you anything). It could turn into a useful marketing tool. Of course, it won't doe anything to the torrents that are already out, but torrents of old versions of things tend to die when a new one comes out, so it would eventually work it's way into them.

[Josh Roby]

Another slightly more elaborate option is not just to ask the administrators to take down the file but to ask them to take down the full pdf file and replace it with a quick-start "preview" of the game.  I don't know how the game is laid out or how easy this is, but you might consider intentionally releasing a Panty Explosion Lite for free download -- and make sure the last page is an ad for the full game, listing off everything that the full game has that the preview doesn't.

[daMoose_Neo]

Now this is indeed sad. Thumbing through the site, I see a number of old books & magazines you're not likely to get a hold of. This, I think, is precicely why sites like that should exist. But right along side them are books not only still in print but from indie guys too.

As for demonoid, they've been posted about before doing this sort of thing...last I knew, an author with a complaint voiced here resulted in the site being restricted to members with a password for a couple weeks, but the titles were still there...

[Lance D. Allen]

Honestly, I think you've done the best you can, Jake. That post was mostly polite, with only a slight bit of bitterness, and it moderately well demonstrates that you're a person, not a faceless corporation. Because you can't really do anything about it, your best bet would be to incorporate it into your advertising campaign. Whenever you come across your game for illegal download, and there's any sort of community, try to get into the community, let them get to know you. Maybe your .pdf and even hardcopy sales will be positively affected by it. Sociological studies have shown that the closer you are to a person, the less loathe you are to hurt them, assuming you're a fairly well-balanced person.

For the record, I'm much the same. I will download things, but I do have my rules about what I'll download, and I try to support the things I like. I wouldn't ever download an indie game (except, perhaps, to preview, and I'd totally pay for it if I liked it) because I know that the people who put them out aren't rich, and the only way they can afford to create their games is if people support them.

Besides, I prefer hardcopies.

[Jake Richmond]

Thanks for the feedback.

I like the idea of putting out a lite version of the game and using it to replace the files that are out there now. That seems like a really responsible and reasonable way to do this. I intend to do this asap.

Infact all of these suggestions are good and I will be making use of them to some degree. I've bookmarked all of these sites so I could keep track of them. I've found 7 so far that offer PE. A few of them have forums, and I intend to post there on a regular basis and try to win over the users. I will be adding a bit to the PDF about visiting the site for support and supporting the game by purchasing.

Has anybody else had this problem?

Jake

[Clyde L. Rhoer]

Hi Jake,

I'm curious-- are you positive that the sales downturn happened when that download popped up? I would think people who look for games via official sources first are not exactly the same audience as those who look via torrents first. I imagine there would be some cross-over, but it strikes me they wouldn't be the same. However, I have absolutely no evidence, which is why I ask for clarification. I also imagine that a lot of people are interested in your game, but want to check it out since it's so outside their normal experience. I know personally I've been intrigued by the title and subject matter of your game previously, but not enough to lay down cash for it, until I've started to hear things about it via the grapevine. Which as of yet, I've heard nothing.

I understand how this seems to be hurting your sales of pdfs. Is this common for pdf roleplaying games or is there extra interest in your game? If it's common what are other folks doing differently? Do you think that the added eyeballs you get this way aren't going to help in the sales of hard copy books in the long run? My first thought was to wonder what happens if 10% of those people actually play your game. Can you list all the sites you found your game at, so other people know where to look to check for their game, or for me so I know where to post links to a torrent of my game once it's finished. It strikes me that this might also be a useful way for folks to find playtesters.

[timfire]

Hi Jake,

I'm sure this all is frustrating. This may be hurting your sales, but as a fellow publisher I have to say it's probably not hurting it as much as you think.

How long has Panty Explosion been out? It came out around GenCon, right? I ask because I saw a BIG drop in sales of The Mountain Witch after the first couple of months. Your first couple of months are driven by basically fans--people who heard of the game and then want it sight unseen. There aren't that many of this type of customer. Sales follow a pattern of spike-valley-spike-valley. Basically, you get a huge spike, then those people go home and play the game, and then a couple of months later they play the game with their friends, and then their friends go out and buy the book. From the sales figures I've seen from various people, there's usually a low point around 3-5 months.

I sold 93 copies of tMW first year at GenCon, followed by like 60 the following month, followed by a quick descent to like 17 for my 4th month or so. Very frustrating for my new publisher self. But the good news is that low point is followed by a slow and steady climb back up.

Another thing to think about is that it's close to Christmas. People may be waiting until Nov or Dec to buy books.

I bet that the 3 month thing, the Christmas thing, and the few missed sales all combined at the same time to give you a super dramtic drop in sales. Something to realize is that 3 sales a day is a HUGE number. I don't believe even Luke or Vincent maintains those types of numbers. 1 sale a day is a "successful" amount for most folks here. (That's about where tMW is.) That said, 1 sale a week seems a little low. Having the PDFs available for download probably is hurting things, at least in the shortrun. But there are a few things to remember.

First, there's no way that all 300-odd downloads are missed sales. There are alot of people who would download the book to see what it's about, but would never spend the money on their curiosity. Second, even if you lose some sales, in the long run it *might* help things. I seem to remember a post here where someone said they in fact saw an increase in sales after their PDF showed up on Kazaa. There is the exposure factor. As more people become aware of your game, your sales will increase, even if you lose some of them to piracy. The hope is that the amount of increase will offset the ones you lose. But only time will tell if this is true for you, and of course there's no guarrentee that in the end this will for the better.

[Jake Richmond]

'm curious-- are you positive that the sales downturn happened when that download popped up?

I'm positive that it happened at the same time. I'm not positive that it was the reason though. It could be a coincidence. There are certainly other factors. We weren't expecting to maintain those sales forever.  But the sales drop was very, very sudden. Neither Matt or I could figure it out. I think this is at least a contributing factor.

I understand how this seems to be hurting your sales of pdfs. Is this common for pdf roleplaying games or is there extra interest in your game?

I have no idea. I've been curious if anyone else has had the same problem.

Do you think that the added eyeballs you get this way aren't going to help in the sales of hard copy books in the long run?

Theres definetly an upside to it, but I don't know if it outweighs the downside. Mostly because it's hard to determine how big the downside is. Theres always the possibility that a large amount of exposure like this could be benificial, and could lead to positive word of mouth and more sales down the road. At the same time, since you can get the book for free on these sites (and when you search for the game one of these sites comes up on the first page on most engines) I'm not sure that more sales will be the result.  I guess we'll see.

My first thought was to wonder what happens if 10% of those people actually play your game.

Mine too. Will they spread the word? Will those people buy the game? Or will they just send their friends links to download it for free? It could work both ways. Certainly having more people exposed to the game is nice, no matter what the outcome. Thats a silver lining I guess.

How long has Panty Explosion been out? It came out around GenCon, right? I ask because I saw a BIG drop in sales of The Mountain Witch after the first couple of months. Your first couple of months are driven by basically fans--people who heard of the game and then want it sight unseen. There aren't that many of this type of customer. Sales follow a pattern of spike-valley-spike-valley. Basically, you get a huge spike, then those people go home and play the game, and then a couple of months later they play the game with their friends, and then their friends go out and buy the book. From the sales figures I've seen from various people, there's usually a low point around 3-5 months.

Yeah, I recognize this.  PE did come out at Gencon, and we did see a surge of sales in the month after that. We never expected to maintain those numbers. But it was shocking to go from something to nothing. It happened in a day. We had been makng (on average) 3 sales a day since we returned from Gencon (for over a month) and then one day it just stopped. I thought our site was broken. It went completly dry. I can accept that enthusiastic buyers from Gencon would only last so long, but it ssems that to go from good sales to absolutly nothing in one day... that was weird. Like I said, I though our site was broken, until we had someone make an order about 2 weeks later.

Theres no way I believe that these sites are responsible for our entire sales decline. I'm sure that after the Gencon hype wore off we saw a natural decline in sales. We did expect that. The weird thing is our site traffic has continued to go way up while our sales have gone down. People are still checking out the site. Much more then they did in the month after Gencon when we were making good sales. our reviews have been very positive too. And when you search for Panty Explosion on Google the Share Virus site has gone from being on the 10th page to being on the first. I do think that these downloads are hurting our sales to some degree.I don't expect we'd be doing 3 sales a day, but I do think we would be doing better then we are now. And it is hard to say that without feeling like I'm just complaining that my book isn't selling better.

First, there's no way that all 300-odd downloads are missed sales. There are alot of people who would download the book to see what it's about, but would never spend the money on their curiosity.

It's much more then 300 at this point. That was just one site. But as I said before, I recognize that completely. I doubt more then 10% of those people would ever look at the book otherwise, and maybe only 5% would ever consider buying it. At that point maybe we're only losing 5 or 6 sales a week. maybe as many as 10 or as few as 1 or 2. Who knows? Those are still sales I'd like to have. Does it seem weird to be worried about it? I don't know. I feel like theres a very limited number of people that I can sell my game to. A small aucience. If that audience is getting it by other means then I can't sell it to them. It sucks.

Second, even if you lose some sales, in the long run it *might* help things. I seem to remember a post here where someone said they in fact saw an increase in sales after their PDF showed up on Kazaa. There is the exposure factor. As more people become aware of your game, your sales will increase, even if you lose some of them to piracy. The hope is that the amount of increase will offset the ones you lose. But only time will tell if this is true for you, and of course there's no guarrentee that in the end this will for the better.

We'll see. I am curious to see what the outcome will be. It may well be that this will be good in the long run. It may be that sales are effectivly dead. Or somewhere in between. I'll have to wait and see I guess.



Thanks guys


Jake Richmond

[David Artman]

My advice may be a case of "too little too late," but why don't you stop selling PDFs and sell only print-on-demand? At this point, you'd probably have to do a Second Edition--complete with more content, art, gameplay tips, etc--to undermine the utility or attractiveness of the First Edition. Ideally, you'd have some MAJOR systemic change that would make the First Edition out-of-date or non-standard. Yes, this burns the early adopters a bit; so offer them the price of their PDF download off the POD sale, and it's a "push" for them. You'd need only send each initial buyer a one-use coupon code (which your POD provider or shopping cart engine must support, of course) that they can use to have the PDF sale deducted, and they buy the Second Edition POD book for only the difference--they don't have to "respend" what they've already put into it.

Evil Profiteering Notion: Ensure that the initial PDF sales price is absorbed by a mark-up, so that you don't lose any difference between the coupon price and your POD publisher's charge.
E.G. POD$ = PDF$ + per-copy-cost;
thus POD$ - PDF$ = per-copy-cost... plus a buck, maybe ;-)

HTH;
David

[pigames]

It has been my experience that people who download this stuff illegally probably wouldn't spend the money on your product anyway, so technically, you're not losing any money. Initial sales always taper off like that without constant buzz. Consider the pirating to be free advertising - you now get your product out there to more people and that means more exposure. And if you offer a POD version, someone who downloaded may just order a copy. Don't let it get to you. It's not the end of the world.

P.S. I informed Wizards and some other larger publishers (read large license holders), so they may be able to get it shutdown. I know that Wizards stopped an illegal European POD distribution service, so they can probably do something about this as well. Of course, it will just show up somewhere else, but hey, that's par for the course.

[Yokiboy]

I'm with the guy from PIG. I have gotten my hands on lots of indie games through illicit downloads, even games that aren't natively sold as PDFs, but I do buy the ones I like to support the authors and get print versions where available. Right now there's almost no way to avoid people digitally sharing your product, if the demand's big enough, count on it being illicitly shared online. The good news is that the real fans will probably still support you, while the others wouldn't have spent a cent on it anyways.

I find that a lot of RPG publishers are so afraid of people not buying their print product, that they don't make play aids or rules summaries easily available. Roleplaying games have a high entrance cost already as someone must read and understand the rules, so without an available rules synopsis people are usually driven to scan and share your book anyway.

Getting back to Panty Explosion, I think a lot of people are downloading it based purely on its great title. Many of the thieves probably don't even know what an RPG is, and will toss it shortly after the first glance.

Anyhow, if I weren't medicated right now I could wax on much longer about this topic. My dad's spent a lifetime in the music industry, and we've had several heated discussions over digital downloads.

TTFN,

Yoki

[Peter_Hollinghurst]

Perhaps you could put your own version of the pdf on some peer to peer software, ensuring it has a link to website and methods to pay for it, or make an 'honesty donation' through paypal or something like that? Treat it as a marketing opprotunity, not a problem. If you link to a POD version thats even better because there is a fair chance that people may download the pdf to see if they like the game, and if they actualy play it, will discover that like most of us its easier to play from a hardcopy.
The key part would be to make sure that a pdf version with your 'honesty policy' statement and links to get legit/POD copies is easily available-get it onto a system connected as much as possible to peer to peer networks, onto sites with links to bit torrents and so on. Eventually the easy availability will mean that the version with links becomes the one everyone downloads over the old one without links simply because more people have it and its easier to get.
You also get the added benefit of being able to control the content-so this version could be playable, but missing extra features found in the POD version.

I think that overall the main factor to consider is that most people who download rpgs don't seem to play them from pdf as much as they would rather have a hard copy. I am in that category myself-I have tons of pdfs, and have never actually played straight from a pdf without finding it a pain to use, so I always get hard copies. I use pdfs as a backup (I have lent out games that got in terrible condition by the time were returned), for generating spare handouts and info sheets, or for printing out things like character details that I don't want to have to flick through pages to find in an adventure.

[Jake Richmond]

Thanks for the advice. Matt and I have been talking aboutthis a lot the lst few weeks and deciding what we want to do. I've also attempted to talk to the people that run several of these download sites. Some where very reasonable, others were incredibly rude. most haven't returned my emails.

For now we're still exploring options and deciding how we want to take advantage of this situation.