Qualities of Real Weapons

[contracycle]

What was the other reason?

A word of... well, not exactly caution, perhaps rather something that bugs me - mix-n-match weaponry.  I know its fun to apply your system to every weapon but there are concerns about what effect the menagerie of armaments can have on a game - it can really blow a mood by challenging the sense of internal continuity.  I also worry that it caters to the "I've got the better weapon" approach rather than I am the better fighter, which I suspect is not the intention of the game.  

As for weapons to see explored, I have to vote for the venerable spear - your common or garden six-foot stick with a pointy bit.  I've seen a couple of reconstructions of spear-fighting and the odd chinese drill, so I'd be interested to know for one thing what sort of manouver actions and values you assign the spear, seeing as I'm not going to see the book till it hits the shelves.

Lastly, there is another virtue to refraining from detailing too many weapons - it gives the fans something to chew on forever and you don't have to take the rap. :)

[Jake Norwood]

What was the other reason?

I heard that they were there to distract the opponent and make it hard to follow the spear or sword point. But, as I said, I just "heard" this, and while I consider myself to know a decent bit on western stuff, my eastern knowledge is pretty scant in comparision.

A word of... well, not exactly caution, perhaps rather something that bugs me - mix-n-match weaponry.  I know its fun to apply your system to every weapon but there are concerns about what effect the menagerie of armaments can have on a game - it can really blow a mood by challenging the sense of internal continuity.  I also worry that it caters to the "I've got the better weapon" approach rather than I am the better fighter, which I suspect is not the intention of the game.  

I agree. What I actually wanted to do with this thread was 2-fold. (1) Discuss the realities of the weapons we all know and love (longswords and rapiers, for example), especially for those folks who have gotten their only knowledge about them from RPGs and Movies (and I'm not sure which is worse). (2) The other one is to come up with stats for other weapons that we want to see and use, but primarily on an unofficial basis. There really is no need for a 37-page weapon list for TROS, but "talking shop" and trying to apply the TROS paradigm is fun.

As for weapons to see explored, I have to vote for the venerable spear - your common or garden six-foot stick with a pointy bit.  I've seen a couple of reconstructions of spear-fighting and the odd chinese drill, so I'd be interested to know for one thing what sort of manouver actions and values you assign the spear, seeing as I'm not going to see the book till it hits the shelves.

I've done some spear training western-style (which is nearly identical to the q-staff, I might add), and I believe that TROS has good stats for them. There's a lot that can be done with a spear, I agree.

With a spear in TROS you can:
Bash, Beat, Feint, Hook/trip, stop short, (obviously) thrust, counter, and parry. The spear was the greatest battlefield weapon probably ever--easy to learn, use, and make, and deadly to boot.

Lastly, there is another virtue to refraining from detailing too many weapons - it gives the fans something to chew on forever and you don't have to take the rap. :)

True, true. But I'm a fanboy at heart myself, too.

Jake

[Bankuei]

Ok, here's an idea for the classic Leaf blade weapon:

•Used primarily by followers of the 7 Vows
•Most are +1 DTN(extra weight, less balanced)
•Inflict +4 bloodloss on stabs and -2 dice to heal(very nasty)
•Usually knives up to medium reach swords

Rules for stone weapons(in case anyone wants to take ROS to Sorcerer and Sword places)

•Used primarily by cultures with little metal, or metalworking
•+1 DTN(heavy)
•+1 Damage(on top of normal damage)
•These rules are for mass weapons, not knives or spears.

And finally, something else that I think is a useful weapon in any campaign with farmers/woodsmen, the machete

•Farming/wood clearing tool, carried by lots of folks
•ATN(cutting only) 7(same as axe), DTN 8 (same as axe), reach- short, Damage ST+1C
• Probably isn't banned or outlawed in most countries, so anyone can carry it....

Any comments?

-Edited to reflect Wolfen's comments below-

Chris

[Brian Leybourne]

My initial proposition, then, is:
(Bull)whip
Range: long/very long (depending on build)
ATN: 7 or 8?
DTN: 10 or 12?
Dam: ST -3b (or cutting?)
Notes: Doubles (Triples?) Shock modifiers before WP is subtracted. Pain is normal. No bonuses against armor of any kind.

Jake

A bullwhip has a few other uses as well, of course.

(I'm speaking from films and books here, as I have no personal experience with whips, so if this is wrong then try not to flame me too hard *grin*)

Assuming films and books have *not* lied to me all these years, the whip should allow the use of the trip maneuver, and should have it's own special maneuver for disarming opponents by lashing around a weapon and pulling it out of the opponents grip.

Perhaps make an attack roll at the default whip ATN (7/8 as you suggested, Jake). Opponent can evade or block, but cannot parry or counter etc. If successful, make a contested Strength roll (TN is opponents Strength). Attacker gets +1 die on this roll per 2 points in the attack margin of success. (Not one-for-one because striking the weapon with the whip doesn't add strength, but you should get *something* therefore 1 for 2). If successful, weapon is ripped out of opponents hand, and lands x feet away (roll on the grappling disarm table and multiply result by 2 since a whip can flick something pretty far away).

What do people think of that idea?

[Lance D. Allen]

One comment on the machete, Chris.. My take on the machete is that it's basically a shortsword designed for cutting only. Due to this focus, I can see the damage being ST+1, but +2? I can't see it. Comparing it with other weapons which are +2... a bastard sword on the thrust, a half-sworded dopplehander, a thrusting estoc, a cutting longsword, and the falchion.. I don't see the machete measuring up to these other weapons.

[Bankuei]

Due to this focus, I can see the damage being ST+1, but +2

My bad, I was looking at 2 handed #'s for the axe... I'll go ahead and fix that.

Machetes are weighted towards the business end of things for maximum swinging and chopping power.  They are designed to chop through wood and easily go through an inch thick branch without much of a swing.  They're also the preferred weapon of third world farmers around the world, and are responsible for lost arms and limbs.  They pretty much do the same thing as axes tho.  

Chris

[Valamir]

See the Falchion (Fall-Chin) for an actual historical sword which was basically a medieval machete.

[Rattlehead]

I wouldn't consider either one a viable weapon in any kind of life-or-death situation...rather something good for keeping an opponent at bay when you've got room to move around in (in the case of a whip), or for making someone talk (as with the cat o nine).

I think your stats for these weapons are good. And I agree that they aren't so much damaging as painful. But, considering the impact of pain and shock in this combat system, they may be more effective than many weapons! Especially if you want to capture an opponent rather than kill them.

I also think the whip would require it's own proficiency, since untrained use would be nearly impossible - and dangerous. I second Lance's statement regarding the entagle and disarm maneuvers for whips also. I doubt you could parry very well with one, though... ;-)

Brandon

[Lyrax]

Whip - DTN 22: Unbelievable.  :-D

Some of my friends have been looking for axe variants, like Lochaber and such.  I would personally like to see Caltrops at least pointed out in the appendix.  It also wouldn't hurt to make up arquebus stats, like so:

ATN: 5
Range: +1 ATN every 15 yards
Damage: 8 base damage (same as longbow), +2 vs. hard armors, +1 vs. soft armors
Prep Time: 15-20 rounds

What do you think?

[Jake Norwood]

I'd make the range mod a lot uglier and the prep time longer.

Jake

[Atomic Requiem]

It also wouldn't hurt to make up arquebus stats, like so:

What's next, TRoS psionics? :)

Sorry, firearms and psionics are my two "favorite" things to see in a fantasy campaign. But that's neither here nor there, since "If you don't like them, don't use them" is the rule du jour.

<cough> I really should've deleted this post, as it isn't too useful. I know they have a historical, realistic place in the game, so I really shouldn't said anything. Don't let my pessimism here slow you down.

I'm not sure how to reflect its advantages versus bows either. You can't make them cheaper, I don't think. If you have rules for weapon creation (or they're coming out) you could certainly have something there reflecting what was said below. I tend to think an arqubus etc. would do more damage on the whole than a bow, and it would have additional effects versus armour, as the original poster pointed out.

That prep time will be a killer though. :)

*AR*

[Jake Norwood]

There were actual several kinds of firearms in the midieval period, and the late midieval/early renn period (TROS setting) many were actually getting reliable. The kozaks (cossaks of earth) were feared marksmen, in fact. I'd like to involve some firearms later on, maybe in TFOB.

Jake

[Jaif]

An arquebus has an ATN of 5? 5! That's as accurate as a rapier!

An arquebus is a crappy, unrifled gunpowder toy that was used by and against massed formations and tended to really scare the crap out of people.  It was not a sniper rifle, and should, if anything, have the worst ATN in the game.

The advantages that an arquebus had is something that probably won't translate well into the game:

1) Arqs were cheap and easy to make compared to longbows and xbows, and
2) Arg ammunition was smaller, so a formation of arqs could sustain fire for a longer period of time.

Just to stress this: an arquebus should have the worst ATN of any missile weapon.

-Jeff

[Jake Norwood]

Just to stress this: an arquebus should have the worst ATN of any missile weapon.

I heartily agree. Now, then, what would its stats be?

[Jake Norwood]

Anyway, the point is that if Dopplehanders can be half-sworded, so should staves. A short staff should probably have long/medium range, depending on grip.

You're absolutely right. It's a fun technique; I find the q-staff to be a devastating weapon (and ol' George Silver would agree).

Isn't the damage you're proposing for the Arq. a bit low? That wouldn't even injure most people with so much as a lvl 1 wound, assuming you even hit them.

Jake