Qualities of Real Weapons

[Bankuei]

Thanks for the link... My character uses a quarterstaff... I recall reading the article that originally mentioned the Englishman fighting off the Spanish, part of which made me really respect it as a vicious and deadly weapon.

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

Doh!

I accidentally deleted your post, Jeff, with the link and everything. If it's not too much trouble, could you re-post?

Jake

[Jaif]

Ok, first the Q-staff link:

http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaart_docherty_0501.htm

Second, my pitch that the short staff should have two ranges, one long & one medium, depending on whether you use the quarter or half grip.  In principle, the same as a dopplehander.

I know next-to-nothing about these techniques, but in my mind's-eye a half-gripped short staff is more defensive, so would have the TNs reversed (7/6 instead of 6/7).  I would also have no or minimal penalty to switching grips; the point of the q-staff is it's flexibility in handling (smooth wood, symmetric design).

Third, an arq link I just found:

http://www.strategypage.com/cic/reader.asp?target=CIC02

Remember that this article approaches the various weapons as they'd be used in a formation, not their maximum capabilities.

Last, my suggested stats for the arquebus, based on nothing but a little book learnin (kids, don't try this at home):

ATN: 9, +1/10 yards.
Reload time: 30 rounds (2-second rounds assumed, arqs had 40-odd steps between reloads).
Eff St: 3
DR: 3+2b (5 total) (MOD: +1 vs hard armors, +x shock)

Isn't the damage you're proposing for the Arq. a bit low? That wouldn't even injure most people with so much as a lvl 1 wound, assuming you even hit them.

I modified the stats a bit so it would operate more like a mass weapon. I also checked the stats on a short bow, and modified the damage up to keep it inline.  It's now a shortbow for damage, better vs armor, but crappy accuracy.  However, remember a few things:

1) An arquebus purposefully had a low charge to keep the recoil down.  This isn't a modern weapon, all the blast had to go somewhere.

2) I've never read anything that claimed the arq was terribly damaging, though it was still effective against hard armor.

3) An arquebus was intended for use against formations, not individuals.  We're not even talking matchlock pistol accuracy here.

I really have no idea how accurate the above numbers are: I've only given it a little though.  However, I do know that an arquebus was a worse personal weapon than either the longbow or xbow, and really was a good choice only for reasons outside of the scope of the game (ammo size, training, cheap-to-build).

-Jeff

[Ace]

Jaif I have some proto styles modified from my Fanatsy games for "Stick Dance" which includes quarter and half staffing, Twin Swords School style which is a distant cousin of Escrima.

Would you like me to post these?

[Jake Norwood]

Jaif I have some proto styles modified from my Fanatsy games for "Stick Dance" which includes quarter and half staffing, Twin Swords School style which is a distant cousin of Escrima.

Would you like me to post these?

Are these the one's we've been waiting for? By all means, post them.

Jake

[Ace]

Jaif I have some proto styles modified from my Fanatsy games for "Stick Dance" which includes quarter and half staffing, Twin Swords School style which is a distant cousin of Escrima.

Would you like me to post these?

Are these the one's we've been waiting for? By all means, post them.

Jake

No Problem. BTW this is a long post



I only have two that really matter in game terms. The others are too similar to styles in the book or are to world specific philosophical styles.

The complete list (from my world Midrea all rights reserved yada yada)

Vinyarn 5 elemants method - This is Sword and Shield with the names and serial number filed off. Manuevers have different names, a high thrust might be called "Tongue of fire" for example.  A simple center block would be called "Wall of earth" and so on. The fifth element refered to here is shen aka "Spirit" specifically a warriors  spirit and soul.
Masters of this style will have a faily high Will stat and meditation score.

12 Fold Path swordmans ship- Use Longsword style with some Katana elements. Talk a lot about the number twelve and the Zodiac and anything related. The style heavily emphasizes cominations of the 12 basic attacks, 12 basic defenses and so on. A lot of riddleseekers wil use this style

Hala unarmed method - Karate and Judo mixed.


Bandii speed fighting- Another /Armed Unarmed form, like Wingchun more or less. The favored weapon is a short spear used with a lot of circling punctuated by periods of furious jabbing.  

Discipline of the Forms (loosley like the Agrippa magic circle schools only with all of the Pythagorean solids included.)  In TROS Use Rapier. Add hermetic style mumbo jumbo. Stir....

Barrakia stick dance- With text strait from Midrea

Occupied during the Hujasani "movements" and forbidden the use of most arms The Barrakia developed this style using the best weapon availble to them, the staff.  Typical staves used in this style are 5-6 feet long.

Masters of the style will have good stealth related skills, dancing (uded to disguise the weapon training)  and may be proficient in Spear, Sling (easy to hide) Knife and Unarmed combat.

Tros Stats:

Offense-----

Bash (0)
Beat (0)
Thrust (0)
Feint (v)
Sweep (1) -- treat this move as a hook. Basically the staff is used to sweep an opponents legs
Stop Short (0)
Half Staff (v) --- treat this move as half swording except that the staff user may also bash as well as thrust. DTN is reduced by 1 however any penaltys to hit the hands are reduced to 0
Kick (1)

Defense----
Counter (2)
Parry (0)
Expulsion  (2)
Evasive attack (1)

Defaults
cut and Thrust -4
dagger -2
double hander -3
mass weapon and shield -4
pole arms -2
pole axe -2
brawling -1
rapier -4
Sword and Shield -4
case of rapiers -4
Longsword -2
wrestling -2


Spellblade form- Not usuable with TROS magic due to casting times. Closest real world equivilant Dreamblade Occult Swordsmanship filtered through Mercedes Lackey.  It was here http://www.chaosmatrix.com/dreamblade but the site is no more. If you are interested let me know I will send you the info.
TROS terms Use Cut and Thrust style and maybe an arming glove. The other hand will be casting spells!


Kirinian reflective form- Something like a Gim used in southern chinese styles. Mix in a little Tsing I and Pau Kua orient to Katas and you are good to go. TROS versions  might be used in Yone until I figure something out use Cut and thrust style

Twin Swords School-- The basic idea of a gentlemans school and the two shortswords was given to me by my Rolemaster GM but here is the Midrea version

The Brin Republic is not noted for its extensive martial culture however over the years several dueling and skirmish oriented styles have been created.  The best known is the Twin Swords School
Students of the two swords school are trained in swordsmanship, scholarship and the arts.

In TROS terms a Twin Swords graduate should take Academic and Swordman package. Most will know a form of art as well.

Game note: The Brin Republic is "clockpunk" in technology. Standard arms for the Military include breachloading flintlock rifles and airguns as well. Bayonet training and knife play replaces sword use.

In TROS they should have matchlocks if the other forces have handgonnes or less.

Aslo note Brin fighter tend wear light armor other than helmets. The climate of the Republic is hot, think Southern California with a bit more
moisture.

TROS Stats:

Offensive-----

Beat (0)
Bind and Strike (0)
Double Strike (0)
Feint (1)
Simulaneous Strike and Parry (0)
Thrust (0)
Cut (0)
Grapple (2) usually with a stick -1 to ATN for leverage if unarmed
Kick (2)

Defensive-----
counter (2)
expulsion (2)
grapple (2) usually with the stick dtn -1 for leverage if unarmed
parry (0)

This style is used with short swords, short sticks, knives and bare hands.

Defaults
Case of rapiers -3
cut and thrust -2
dagger -1
great sword -4
mass weapon and shield -4
polearms -4
brawling -1
wrestling -1
Rapier -3
sword and Shield -3
Doublehander -4
longsword -3

[Lance D. Allen]

All this talk of staves has got me itching to recreate Gothrek. Hmm.. I wonder how hard it would be to create a Gol PC...

Seriously though, having read various classical fiction novels (Robin Hood by Pyle leaping to the front of my mind) I think that the staff has gotten a major bad rap in such games as D&D and others influenced by it. It was a "weak" weapon relegated to wizards and other non-combatants. Gothrek was a character I created, a "gentle giant" orcish monk who used a quarterstaff. My use of the weapon was based off of a character I thought was cool from David Drake's "Lord of the Isles" series, Cashell. He was impressive with that staff, and I wanted to recreate that with Gothrek, but found it more effective to use my monkish bare-handed style than the weapon at all.

I'm curious though.. How similar is quarterstaff to the bo-staff maneuvers used in eastern martial arts?

[Jake Norwood]

I'm curious though.. How similar is quarterstaff to the bo-staff maneuvers used in eastern martial arts?

It's really not at all from what I've seen. The quarterstaff was longer (8' + on average), harder (Ash or Hickory, not Oak or Waxwood), and was used held at the "quarter," leading to different techniques. The only places I've seen "half staffing" are (1) close fighting (2) armor fighting and (3) sport q-staff. Still, a long stick is a long stick...

Jake

[Bankuei]

I'm curious though.. How similar is quarterstaff to the bo-staff maneuvers used in eastern martial arts?

Aside from the "for show" or fancy moves, it's the same the world round.  One fun little bit of historical use in the east, was during a major battle between samurai and rebellious monks, two cases of monks deflecting arrows with their staves spinning.  Monks still lost though..

Chris

[Jaif]

Jake, are you going to make 'official' changes to the short staff and quarterstaff allowing them to be used at different ranges? Or is this home-grown time?

As for the arquebus, the bottom line is that real world firearms of the period wouldn't find much use in a standard RPG game; if you want the firearm feel I would suggest making something up and explaining it away with some fantastic element (e.g. magical metals, Uglub's sorcerous smiths, etc...)

-Jeff

[Jake Norwood]

Jake, are you going to make 'official' changes to the short staff and quarterstaff allowing them to be used at different ranges? Or is this home-grown time?

Home grown, mostly because the manuscript is out of my hands at this point, and because I think that anyone that cares enough will (a) do it that way anyway or (b) come to the web and see it there.

Let's face it--we've all mauled our favorite games to make them do what we want.

Jake

[Ben]

Jaif says,

ATN: 9, +1/10 yards.
Reload time: 30 rounds (2-second rounds assumed, arqs had 40-odd steps between reloads).
Eff St: 3
DR: 3+2b (5 total) (MOD: +1 vs hard armors, +x shock)

I have have to disagree with this. Not with the arquebus being fairly inaccurate but rather the way it's conveyed.  I am reasonablly certain that hitting someone 10yrds away was a bit easier than TN9.  I think ATN 6, +1/4yrds(or worse) will better represent its inaccuracy.

The reload time sounds about right, give or take 10 rounds either way. Preping those old muzzle loaded match locks can be tricky. If one were to suggest that the user make some sort of skill roll, they wouldn't be accused of being crazy. I hope. :)

I also have to disagree on the damage. The old lead balls tended to do a lot more damage than the calibered bullets. Well, that's not quite right, lets just say they did a different kind of damage. Most modernish shaped bullets have a tendancy either to lodge themselves into a bone or richet off chipping or fractering the bone and occationally will pass right through. The old shot rarly ever exited the body and if it ever hit bone would splenter often shattering the bone as well. Good call using bludgening damage but I still would increase the damage by 1(maybe even two) to more accuratly capture the severity of the powderball wounds.

[Bob Richter]

Jaif says,

ATN: 9, +1/10 yards.
Reload time: 30 rounds (2-second rounds assumed, arqs had 40-odd steps between reloads).
Eff St: 3
DR: 3+2b (5 total) (MOD: +1 vs hard armors, +x shock)

I have have to disagree with this. Not with the arquebus being fairly inaccurate but rather the way it's conveyed.  I am reasonablly certain that hitting someone 10yrds away was a bit easier than TN9.  I think ATN 6, +1/4yrds(or worse) will better represent its inaccuracy.

The reload time sounds about right, give or take 10 rounds either way. Preping those old muzzle loaded match locks can be tricky. If one were to suggest that the user make some sort of skill roll, they wouldn't be accused of being crazy. I hope. :)

I also have to disagree on the damage. The old lead balls tended to do a lot more damage than the calibered bullets. Well, that's not quite right, lets just say they did a different kind of damage. Most modernish shaped bullets have a tendancy either to lodge themselves into a bone or richet off chipping or fractering the bone and occationally will pass right through. The old shot rarly ever exited the body and if it ever hit bone would splenter often shattering the bone as well. Good call using bludgening damage but I still would increase the damage by 1(maybe even two) to more accuratly capture the severity of the powderball wounds.

Early firearms were actually far more dangerous to the user than to...a man standing a mere 10 yards away. In that, I think these stats are fairly accurate. After all, if you get a finely constructed Arquebus, you can get the ATN down to 8...:)

Personally, I think 8b damage would be more or less appropriate.

And something about a chance of exploding without fine-quality ammunition...

[Furious D]

Bob Richter says,


Early firearms were actually far more dangerous to the user than to...a man standing a mere 10 yards away. In that, I think these stats are fairly accurate. After all, if you get a finely constructed Arquebus, you can get the ATN down to 8...:)

Personally, I think 8b damage would be more or less appropriate.

And something about a chance of exploding without fine-quality ammunition...

With the ATN 6 +1 per 4 yds, you get roughly the same inaccuracy at 10 yds, but you actually have a chance at hitting someone when they are at 1 yd distance.  My perception of the difference was that the base ATN reflected how difficult it is to aim the weapon, whereas the length of the range increments reflects accuracy (or lack thereof).  Inaccurate or not, you should be able to reliably hit a target less than 10 feet away.

[Lyrax]

If you're going to make an arquebus, you'll have to incorporate some sort of misfire rule...