Licensed names/products

[Evan Waters]

But suppose such a game were freeware, say on the web- technically that's still not legal, but I feel such a thing is ethically defensible, and it doesn't seem like copyright holders go out of their way to shut these things down (there's a GURPS STAR WARS PDF available somewhere...), so we'd still be talking about an available thing.

Personally I am right now designing an unofficial, unauthorised RPG based on an existing property. I really don't see the point of going through and trying to file off the serial numbers at this stage, so am I just wasting my time on this forum?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I have at least 3 freebies on my site that could be construed as copyright infringement. Whatever. No lawyers breaking down my door so far.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi everyone,

I split Evan's post from this thread in Indie Design, for two reasons.

The first is that that thread is concluded and needs to be permitted its eternal rest; the second is that the topic really is a publishing issue.

Evan, as far as Forge policy is concerned, the legal issues (which you acknowledge) still apply. I'd prefer not to have the Forge collude in legally--questionable acts, even if we all agree that they are ethically OK (and that itself is not a valid assumption).

Therefore, no, licensed properties are not a valid subject for games designed/discussed on the Forge. Zak's Cthonian, for instance, is inspired by Lovecraft and Chambers, but it does not draw on licensed terms and images.

You're not totally out of luck, though. I think it's probably OK for you to provide a link to your game materials and then ask for system comments and so on.

But as for actually designing it (which is what Indie Design is largely for), and as for working with the licensed material as a topic of design discussion ... no.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Jared,

None of the games you mention (I think) were designed via interaction at the Forge. They remain your copyright-infringement hassle, not ours collectively.

Also, and with any luck not prompting another IP go-round, mentioning a licensed property as a source of inspiration is not itself copyright infringement.

Best,
Ron

[Evan Waters]

Okay, I get it- I didn't need too detailed a dissection (I'm close to done already, just have to finish the adventure, the roster, the design notes, possibly some reference sheets) anyway, just was slightly curious as to what I could and couldn't say. That clarifies it. I'll play it safe and not mention the specific game or property- just make reference to "well, I've tried such-and-such a mechanic", etc.

As for ethics, there is room for debate, I admit- in my case the property in question doesn't already have an RPG, so I feel okay in not competing with an existing take on something-or-other, not that I particularly object to those either. It'd be great if I could get some kind of official approval but I don't think the idea is economically viable. For some reason I view freeware RPGs based on pre-existing properties similarly to the way I view fan sites and fandom projects- they're not trying to muscle in on the territory or get a piece of the action, they're mostly done out of affection.

But then again I'm not sure I feel like starting a debate on the ethics or lack thereof of this sort of thing. If anyone else wants to delve into that, fine, but I might just stay out.

[Paganini]

I was wondering about this topic as well. Actually, I PMed Ron about it before I saw this thread. Some things are bothering me here, largely due to the inaccurate use of terms. First of all, an *idea cannot be copyrighted,* only the representation thereof can.

So, according to the law, I could take D&D and rewrite the whole game in my own words, leaving it functionaly the same (same mechanics - clases, saving throws, etc.) as long as nothing was directly copied from the book. I could even use the same terms that the book uses, and I could call it Dungeons and Dragons, and sell it, with no trouble... EXCEPT that many of those terms are WotC trademarked and can't be used without a license. The licensing of trademarks and the copyrighting of representation are two different things. I couldn't actually rewrite D&D because those trademarks would stop me.

One could get in trouble for designing a game and calling it "The Star Wars RPG." But one can't get in trouble for designing a game *to use in the Star Wars universe.*

This is how I understand the law anyway. If there are misconceptions here, please correct them! :)

[Valamir]

This is how I understand the law anyway. If there are misconceptions here, please correct them! :)

There is one fatal oversight in your understanding.

They have far more money to spend on lawyers than you do.  Many large corporations will attempt to enforce all sorts of outrageous claims to things they have no legal right to claim, because they rely on the average Joe not ponying up the money to hire a lawyer to call them on it.  Thats why its so easy to blanket shut down fan sites.

[Buddha Nature]

I was reading slashdot.org a few days ago and they had a link to the next 10 hot jobs of the future, one of which was an IP Lawyer.  IP is Intellectual Property.  These guys will go after you like a starving dog.  It doesn't matter whether they are "right" or not, but as stated above they will outspend you.

The one good point though is if you are publishing something on the web that is "not cool" to the corporate-powers-that-be they will 9 times out of 10 just send you a cease and decist order, not sue your but off.

Even after you take your site down of course, you can keep developing and just have people email you re: it.

-Shane (who sees both sides of the copyright coin)

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Double aaarrrghhh. I wasn't as clear as I could be.

I am talking only about Indie Game Design. It's the one forum in which discussion of a system (and a topic/setting) is automatically linked to the design of an actual game. So if we discuss "Star Wars mechanics" (for a game in development), it is clearly because someone is openly using Star Wars stuff for game design.

However! Off of that forum, discuss playing Star Wars, discuss mechanics for Star Wars stuff, discuss whether Han Solo was a Rogue or a Fighter, etc, etc. Take it to the limit. Discuss all elements of the actual Star Wars game. Talk about what mechanics might work better or worse, and why. No limits. Just keep it out of Indie Game Design.

Best,
Ron