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Author Topic: Swashbuckling...  (Read 5322 times)
Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« on: June 01, 2002, 06:18:01 AM »

...so I decided to make a Swashbuckler. If you're going to duel, you might as well do it in style, and thus our friend is outfitted with a Rapier and a Buckler for it to "swash" up against. (If nothing's swashing a buckler, how's he a swashbuckler, I'd like to know!)

Anyway, some questions came up (as they almost always do for me.)

I'd been under the strange (mis?)impression that the Rapier was an EXAMPLE of a cut and thrust weapon,* so I looked at the two styles and compared. Game-mechanics-wise, they're more or less the same, except Rapier is missing two maneuvers: cut and counter. Also, its feint has a non-variable activation cost, leading me to wonder:

1) How does a rapier feint works. (Is it a thrust-feint-thrust with only one total die spent [lost] to dump the rest of the pool in?)

2) Would it be acceptable to use a Rapier with the cut & thrust style? I sort of assume that's why it has an ATN for cutting. Maybe not.

3) Given the apparent similarity of the styles, why are they a -2 default from each other?

Other questions came from finally finding the stats for a Buckler:

4) Bucklers are slightly more valulable for parrying slashes than a Rapier, but what OTHER purposes do they serve? They'd seem pretty useless beside a cut & thrust weapon (with their DTN 7) from my present understanding. I hope this proves not to be the case.

5) What is a buckler in tRoS exactly? I've heard the term applied to two different types of small, round shield. What I've heard termed the "English" Buckler is a hand-held anti-thrusting shield commonly paired with the Rapier to counter a Rapier. What I've heard termed the "French" Buckler is strapped to the arm and serves as a defense for someone who has their off-hand full of something (like a dagger) already.

And, finally, concerning equipment quality:
6) (Open question, everybody chime in) What multiplier do you find best suits fine weapons and shields?
7) I could get a Rapier with reduced thrusting and cutting ATNs _OR_ one with an improved DTN?
8) Can I get a Buckler with an improved DTN?

I think that was pretty much all my questions. I do appreciate the wicked little weapon the Rapier is...especially if it feints like I'm thinking it feints now. :)

*(Actually, as I use the term "cut", it is. To me, cuts aren't full-bodied slashes, they're short strokes at full extension, a modification of the thrust, more or less. But that's not how tRoS uses the term.)
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2002, 08:59:24 AM »

Quote from: Bob Richter

I'd been under the strange (mis?)impression that the Rapier was an EXAMPLE of a cut and thrust weapon,* so I looked at the two styles and compared. Game-mechanics-wise, they're more or less the same, except Rapier is missing two maneuvers: cut and counter. Also, its feint has a non-variable activation cost, leading me to wonder:


Because of films such as the Princess bride (and anything else with rapiers) there's this serious missunderstanding about what the rapier is and how it worked. A rapier is a thrust-only weapon, with no edge whatsoever (perhaps 4 inches near the tip, to faccilitate thrusting) and not enough mass behind the blade to succefully cut anything tougher than a banana. The Cut-and-Thrust sword is an older style of weapon (though it was contemporary with the Rapier for quite some time) that has a more massive blade and cuts quite well.

The counter maneuver--using the Half-sword collumn on the counter table--is now available for rapiers. I think the activation cost is 3, but I'm not sure offhand.

Quote
1) How does a rapier feint work. (Is it a thrust-feint-thrust with only one total die spent [lost] to dump the rest of the pool in?)


Do the rapier feint from a thrust (it's an exeption to the "feint from a cut" rule). Treat the cost like any other feint, but spend one extra CP die to activate the first bonus die.

Quote
2) Would it be acceptable to use a Rapier with the cut & thrust style? I sort of assume that's why it has an ATN for cutting. Maybe not.


The Rapier ATN for cutting is there because you can try to cut, but as you see in the stats your chances of doing anything more than a scratch is (correctly) unlikely. If you use the C&T style, take the -2 CP default.

Quote
3) Given the apparent similarity of the styles, why are they a -2 default from each other?


They are similiar enough for a -2 default, not a -4 default, but they aren't the same weapon--or even all that close (otherwise they'd be in one proficiency, not two). Go to www.thearma.org and take a gander at their C&T and rapier videos (assuming you've got a high-speed connection). The difference should be obvioius even to someone not real well versed in such things.

Quote
Other questions came from finally finding the stats for a Buckler:

4) Bucklers are slightly more valulable for parrying slashes than a Rapier, but what OTHER purposes do they serve? They'd seem pretty useless beside a cut & thrust weapon (with their DTN 7) from my present understanding. I hope this proves not to be the case.


It is, IRL, easier to parry with the right-hand weapon than with a buckler or a main-gauche. Why use it then? MANEUVERS! The bind and strike, block and strike, and a few others are only possible with an off-hand weapon, and bucklers function exactly as that.

5
Quote
) What is a buckler in tRoS exactly? I've heard the term applied to two different types of small, round shield. What I've heard termed the "English" Buckler is a hand-held anti-thrusting shield commonly paired with the Rapier to counter a Rapier. What I've heard termed the "French" Buckler is strapped to the arm and serves as a defense for someone who has their off-hand full of something (like a dagger) already.


Go with the "english hand-buckler." that's what we had in mind. I would like to point out, however, that it's the same that is common in italy and germany--the flourishing points for swordplay throughout the mid ages and renn. periods. It is good for slashes, thrusts, and all kinds of things.

Quote
And, finally, concerning equipment quality:
6) (Open question, everybody chime in) What multiplier do you find best suits fine weapons and shields?
7) I could get a Rapier with reduced thrusting and cutting ATNs _OR_ one with an improved DTN?
8) Can I get a Buckler with an improved DTN?


6) our home rule is that the 5x gets you one mod, the 10x gets you another. WIth shields the 10x is needed for the extra DTN mod, though.
7) the thrusting ATN, cutting ATN, and DTN are 3 separate things. Under the above home rule a 5x priced rapier would lower one of the three, a 10x would lower two of them.
8) yes. And even at 10x the price it isn't a bad deal (so I'd do it!). This improved DTN not only reflects crafstmanship, but also the build. Bucklers with hooks, spikes, and other odd protrusions were very common, and were in many ways better than a plain ol' round one.

Quote
*(Actually, as I use the term "cut", it is. To me, cuts aren't full-bodied slashes, they're short strokes at full extension, a modification of the thrust, more or less. But that's not how tRoS uses the term.)


This interperetation of a cut could be handled via the thrusting rules if all you're trying to do is slash a cheek or something. It just depends if you're going for "historical" or "cinematic" flavor.

Jake
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2002, 04:17:09 PM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
Quote from: Bob Richter

I'd been under the strange (mis?)impression that the Rapier was an EXAMPLE of a cut and thrust weapon,* so I looked at the two styles and compared. Game-mechanics-wise, they're more or less the same, except Rapier is missing two maneuvers: cut and counter. Also, its feint has a non-variable activation cost, leading me to wonder:


Because of films such as the Princess bride (and anything else with rapiers) there's this serious missunderstanding about what the rapier is and how it worked. A rapier is a thrust-only weapon, with no edge whatsoever (perhaps 4 inches near the tip, to faccilitate thrusting) and not enough mass behind the blade to succefully cut anything tougher than a banana. The Cut-and-Thrust sword is an older style of weapon (though it was contemporary with the Rapier for quite some time) that has a more massive blade and cuts quite well.

The counter maneuver--using the Half-sword collumn on the counter table--is now available for rapiers. I think the activation cost is 3, but I'm not sure offhand.

Quote
1) How does a rapier feint work. (Is it a thrust-feint-thrust with only one total die spent [lost] to dump the rest of the pool in?)


Do the rapier feint from a thrust (it's an exeption to the "feint from a cut" rule). Treat the cost like any other feint, but spend one extra CP die to activate the first bonus die.

Quote
2) Would it be acceptable to use a Rapier with the cut & thrust style? I sort of assume that's why it has an ATN for cutting. Maybe not.


The Rapier ATN for cutting is there because you can try to cut, but as you see in the stats your chances of doing anything more than a scratch is (correctly) unlikely. If you use the C&T style, take the -2 CP default.

Quote
3) Given the apparent similarity of the styles, why are they a -2 default from each other?


They are similiar enough for a -2 default, not a -4 default, but they aren't the same weapon--or even all that close (otherwise they'd be in one proficiency, not two). Go to www.thearma.org and take a gander at their C&T and rapier videos (assuming you've got a high-speed connection). The difference should be obvioius even to someone not real well versed in such things.

Quote
Other questions came from finally finding the stats for a Buckler:

4) Bucklers are slightly more valulable for parrying slashes than a Rapier, but what OTHER purposes do they serve? They'd seem pretty useless beside a cut & thrust weapon (with their DTN 7) from my present understanding. I hope this proves not to be the case.


It is, IRL, easier to parry with the right-hand weapon than with a buckler or a main-gauche. Why use it then? MANEUVERS! The bind and strike, block and strike, and a few others are only possible with an off-hand weapon, and bucklers function exactly as that.

5
Quote
) What is a buckler in tRoS exactly? I've heard the term applied to two different types of small, round shield. What I've heard termed the "English" Buckler is a hand-held anti-thrusting shield commonly paired with the Rapier to counter a Rapier. What I've heard termed the "French" Buckler is strapped to the arm and serves as a defense for someone who has their off-hand full of something (like a dagger) already.


Go with the "english hand-buckler." that's what we had in mind. I would like to point out, however, that it's the same that is common in italy and germany--the flourishing points for swordplay throughout the mid ages and renn. periods. It is good for slashes, thrusts, and all kinds of things.

Quote
And, finally, concerning equipment quality:
6) (Open question, everybody chime in) What multiplier do you find best suits fine weapons and shields?
7) I could get a Rapier with reduced thrusting and cutting ATNs _OR_ one with an improved DTN?
8) Can I get a Buckler with an improved DTN?


6) our home rule is that the 5x gets you one mod, the 10x gets you another. WIth shields the 10x is needed for the extra DTN mod, though.
7) the thrusting ATN, cutting ATN, and DTN are 3 separate things. Under the above home rule a 5x priced rapier would lower one of the three, a 10x would lower two of them.
8) yes. And even at 10x the price it isn't a bad deal (so I'd do it!). This improved DTN not only reflects crafstmanship, but also the build. Bucklers with hooks, spikes, and other odd protrusions were very common, and were in many ways better than a plain ol' round one.

Quote
*(Actually, as I use the term "cut", it is. To me, cuts aren't full-bodied slashes, they're short strokes at full extension, a modification of the thrust, more or less. But that's not how tRoS uses the term.)


This interperetation of a cut could be handled via the thrusting rules if all you're trying to do is slash a cheek or something. It just depends if you're going for "historical" or "cinematic" flavor.

Jake


I was under the impression (from historical research) that Rapiers retained a full cutting edge well into the 17th Century. Only really late Rapiers finally lost the edge and evolved into a purebred thrusting sword (the word "smallsword" comes to mind for some reason.)

Can I get a full list of the revisions to the maneuvers in the first printing manual somewhere?

1) Not as nasty as I thought it was (a little less nasty, actually, not more.) Well, at least I have no fear of making my feints obvious.

2) I'm confused. Are you saying a Rapier can't be used with the C&T style (that I have to default to Rapier if C&T is my primary?) As it stands, it still looks like the Rapier would be more effective in most circumstances with the C&T style (which gives it more and better options,) and combining the two would be the best way to make it an effective weapon.

3) Heh. Well, (as a wrestler myself, I'd say) Dagger and Wrestling aren't really all that close either. *chuckle* I rather thought that was why there was the default in the first place. :)

4) Right. So, other than flavor, why did I choose a buckler over an arming glove or dagger? (I mean, I basically lost one of my maneuvers, the double-strike, by using it.)

5) I figured, but thought I'd check.

6) Hm. What would a x5 do for a buckler, then? It's not like it has any CP loss to reduce.

7) Okay. Thanks.

8) High-quality equipment is life for a swashbuckler, thus why I got to thinking of it. :)
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Lance D. Allen
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2002, 05:46:10 PM »

Quote
4) Right. So, other than flavor, why did I choose a buckler over an arming glove or dagger? (I mean, I basically lost one of my maneuvers, the double-strike, by using it.)


I would think (though I've no experience in this area) that one would be able to punch with a buckler, and have about the same effect as punching with a gauntlet. (ST-1b) Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure.

Ooh, another point that hit me just after I hit send.. An arming glove is very nice, but it cannot be used to block a slash from a bladed weapon (at least as current rules go.. I think Jake mentioned adding a variant that allowed such, though with an increased CP to avoid getting your hand taken off) without severe damage to your hand (it has a AV of 2 in this case)
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Wolves Den Publishing
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Jake Norwood
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Posts: 2261


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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2002, 08:16:24 PM »

Quote
3) Heh. Well, (as a wrestler myself, I'd say) Dagger and Wrestling aren't really all that close either. *chuckle* I rather thought that was why there was the default in the first place. :)


Modernly speaking, you're absolutely right, but if you look into mediev. and renn. dagger fighting, it's really almost pure wrestling with a knife. Check out Fiori, Meyer, Talhoffer, or Marozzo to see what I mean.

Jake
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Bob Richter
Member

Posts: 324


« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2002, 02:00:19 AM »

Quote from: Jake Norwood
Quote
3) Heh. Well, (as a wrestler myself, I'd say) Dagger and Wrestling aren't really all that close either. *chuckle* I rather thought that was why there was the default in the first place. :)


Modernly speaking, you're absolutely right, but if you look into mediev. and renn. dagger fighting, it's really almost pure wrestling with a knife. Check out Fiori, Meyer, Talhoffer, or Marozzo to see what I mean.

Jake


Even so, the knife changes quite a lot. :)
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Shadow
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Posts: 19


« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2002, 02:32:51 AM »

On the buckler issue, to reasons you might use one over, say, a main gauche:  if damage-to-weapon rules are instuted in future TROS (Flower of Battle perhaps?), the buckler should hold up better than the parrying dagger (at least against some of the relatively heavier weapons).  

Why use a buckler over, say, a target shield?  (not a question that was asked until now that I have noticed anyway, but seems to follow the same line of questioning).  I would say you would not, except that you might be able to punch more swiftly with it (though you should be able to pop someone with any shield; Roman legionnaires were trained to punch with the boss of their large shields to knock a foe off balance, with a follow-up thrust of the shortsword... maybe another item for Flower of Battle).  On the other hand, the buckler is smaller and less substantial if you are trying to travel light (compared to a shield).

Shadow
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Lyrax
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Posts: 268


« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2002, 08:36:01 AM »

Speaking of shield punches, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he was telling me that the point and edge (yes, the edge!) on a heater or a kite shield can be used almost like a sword quite easily, and that it hurt quite a bit when they used wooden shields w/ padded armor.  I imagine, however, that it would be ineffective against armor (inaccurate), but good if you don't need to be so discriminating about where the hit lands exactly.  Maybe this should go into the Flower of Battle, too.
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Lance Meibos
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2002, 08:39:59 AM »

I sent the revised edition off thismorning. I'll be posting the revisions throughout this week, but since this particular thing relates to this thread I'll add it...

The new blocking TN for a buckler is 6. There is no CP loss for a buckler or round shield, -1CP for a heater, -2 CP for the next size up. There is a -1 Move penalty for a round shield, -2 for a heater, -3 for a biggun.

These changes are older than this thread, but I thought that they were pertinant.

Jake
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Jared A. Sorensen
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2002, 08:40:55 AM »

Quote from: Lyrax
Speaking of shield punches, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he was telling me that the point and edge (yes, the edge!) on a heater or a kite shield can be used almost like a sword quite easily/quote]

Yeah! Although not historical, I'm thinking of the scene from LotR:FotR where the Uruk-Hai stabbed his shield into the trunk of a tree when trying to decapitate one of the good guys. That was awesome.

While I'm posting, how would prosthetic weapons work? I'm thinking of a pirate's gaff-hook hand or the sword-hand that one of the characters from "Battle Circle" had attached to the stump of his wrist.

And dang, RoS would be fine, fine, fine for playing a game inspired by Battle Circle. I loved those books (uh, when I was 15 I mean).
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jared a. sorensen / www.memento-mori.com
ScarletJester
Member

Posts: 8


« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2002, 10:26:31 AM »

Jake, can you please put together a revision PDF directly downloadable from the RoS website please? Some of us (especially in the UK) paid quite a lot of money to get the game shipped over, and to have it revised *already* means we won't be able to get the revised ruleset for some time without a free DL. I know I've seen various revision rules on these forums, but the speed at which people are posting it's impossible to find them :\

Ta :).
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2002, 01:20:15 PM »

SJ-

I'm compiling it as we speak. Other than Chapter 6, the revisions are small. CH 6 is allready available, as mentioned in the "revisions for august" thread. Email me and I'll see to it you get the link.

Jake
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