Height, Weight, Wrestling.

[Bob Richter]

You've already met Mallory, my Naked Pictish Archer (tm), and you know she's short. You also probably know just how unreasonably light she is. (an 80lb woman, no matter how short, who can actually draw a longbow? not likely.)

More or less, that's what I wanted to talk about.
Mallory has a Wrestling proficiency, which I thought would be useful, but the (entirely accurate, in my opinion as a wrestler) weight difference penalties will probably get her every time.

So why is she so light?

1 -- because she's Pictish.
2 -- because she's Agile.
3 -- because she's Female
4 -- because she's thin.
5 -- because she's Female.

Yes, I just listed Femaleness twice, because it factors in twice. Bear with me.

First, because she's Pictish, she's short. (Okay...)
Second, because she's Female, she's short. (I dig. Yes, women ARE shorter. Has to do with hip structure.)
So I end up rolling 2d6 vs 1d10. Even forgetting that 2d6 generally rolls high for me and single d10s generally roll low, that's almost guaranteed to lose me an inch or two...well...actually...how many inches DID it lose me? Fortunately, only two.
Then, of course, ST+TO (9) - AG+EN (11) lost me another one. So now I'm 4'11". Fair enough. That gives me flavour.

So then I look at the weight table. My EN is 3, which forces me to decide if I'm too thin or too fat (can't I just be sickly, or smoke a lot, or something?) -- I decide it would be inappropriate for my Legendarily Beautiful person to be overly fat...and so I lost 15 lbs. My Height costs me another 30 lbs.  So I'm 105...wait...! I'm female!

Somehow, whoever built this table laboured under the misconception that women are not only LIGHTER than men for the same statistical values, but that they're SIGNIFICANTLY so. In reality, women have these things called breasts. They may be nice to look at, but they also carry some weight. Women are are also wider of the hip, this is what makes them short (and shorter for their weight.) So, basically, my dear girl surrendered 25 lbs straight up and about 15 or so on the height basis (but I already accounted for that.)

So I'm 80 lbs. Problem. That makes her a mere slip of a girl, not the wiry bow-goddess I had originally imagined.

So my solution was to shift her over to "too fat" (to reflect her mammary structures....yeah. That's it.) That gained me 40 lbs...120 lbs isn't bad...

[Jake Norwood]

135 is your average 6' tall miss america.

Yeah, 80 lbs is real light. I know a few chicks that size (good fencers, too). Remember that the whole "breast thing" isn't going to be all that heavy on a slip of a girl. I know we gamers have a thing for ultra-buxom amazon women, but that isn't the reality of the matter.

On the other hand remember that the hieght/weight charts are optional, and for getting a realistic weight most of the time they work great, but not every time. So fix it to your liking. In truth I put those in there (a) for fun and (b) because otherwise every character ends up being 6'2" 180 lbs.

Jake

[Furious D]

135 is your average 6' tall miss america.

Yeah, 80 lbs is real light. I know a few chicks that size (good fencers, too). Remember that the whole "breast thing" isn't going to be all that heavy on a slip of a girl. I know we gamers have a thing for ultra-buxom amazon women, but that isn't the reality of the matter.

On the other hand remember that the hieght/weight charts are optional, and for getting a realistic weight most of the time they work great, but not every time. So fix it to your liking. In truth I put those in there (a) for fun and (b) because otherwise every character ends up being 6'2" 180 lbs.

Jake

6', 135 is far from "average" outside the context of Miss America, though, and is the result of societal ideals which aren't terribly appropriate for an "adventurer"-type, or even for the setting as a whole.  Among the "normal" populace, 135 lbs is more the norm for women in the 5'5", 5'6" range.  Women who are warriors for a living, having more muscle mass, would probably be slightly heavier.  The double penalty (they lose height, which loses weight, and then lose weight again) does seem a bit much.  Shouldn't losing height just be sufficient?  The Miss America anomoly can be the result of the "too skinny" modifiers for having lower than 4 endurance.

I gotta agree with Bob on a point here.  Women who are 4'11", 80 lbs should not be able to draw a long bow.  

*looks suspicious*

It must be some sort of witchery!

[Bob Richter]

135 is your average 6' tall miss america.

Yeah, 80 lbs is real light. I know a few chicks that size (good fencers, too). Remember that the whole "breast thing" isn't going to be all that heavy on a slip of a girl. I know we gamers have a thing for ultra-buxom amazon women, but that isn't the reality of the matter.

On the other hand remember that the hieght/weight charts are optional, and for getting a realistic weight most of the time they work great, but not every time. So fix it to your liking. In truth I put those in there (a) for fun and (b) because otherwise every character ends up being 6'2" 180 lbs.

Jake

I wasn't actually trying to suggest that Mallory's breasts weighed 40 lbs. :)

The biggest thing, I think, is just the wacky way the attributes figure into it all (strength having nothing to do with weight, for example.)

And, yeah, women really don't lose 25 lbs in real life just for being female.

[Jaif]

And, yeah, women really don't lose 25 lbs in real life just for being female.

Women do lose weight "for being female", though I do agree that 25 lbs is a lot at 5'5".  I would expect the ideal body weight at 5'5" for the average frame male frame is around 135, and for a women is around 125.  I've actually looked up these numbers before, so those guesses above are going to be close.  (Btw, I remember the tables well enough to remember 65", 150).

For those who want to argue "ideals" and warped societal values and whatever nonsense, sorry, but Americans are fat and out of shape as a rule.  Furthermore, a substantial portion of Americans are obese, which tends to drive the averages up.  The moral is not to look to American averages for ideals, and certainly not what you'd find in a society without fast-food & supermarkets.

My suggestion? If the tables are really that important to you, drop the base weight to 135, add 10 lbs (?) for each point of str over 4, and multiply a women's weight by a percentage.

Ok, I just did a quick search, and found the following:

If the tables are not available, a simple way to determine desirable body weight is as follows:

Women: 100 pounds of body weight for the first 5 feet of height, 5 pounds for each additional inch.
Men: 106 pounds of body weight for the first 5 feet of height, 6 pounds for each additional inch.
Add 10% for a large frame size, and subtract 10% for a small frame size

So it's a more complicated formula.  Maybe multiply the women's weight over 50lbs by 85% (just eyeballing it).

-Jeff

P.S. Bob, I would never allow someone who was 4'11" use a longbow.  I would certainly, even happily allow them to change their height around, especially if their strength supported it.

P.P.S. Bob, was your pictish archer's str 5? That's min for a longbow.

P.P.P.S. edit: forgot to paste the source: http://health.yahoo.com/health/dc/001938/0.html

[Psychopompous]

>>> Women do lose weight "for being female", though I do agree that 25 lbs is a lot at 5'5". I would expect the ideal body weight at 5'5" for the average frame male frame is around 135, and for a women is around 125. <<<

Nope, women lose weight because of lower average muscle mass. A woman of the same strength (important in weight) and height as a male will be heavier.

Those ideal body weights are pretty meaningless, especially for strong people, how many body builders fit into their ideal weight range?

[Jaif]

Nope, women lose weight because of lower average muscle mass.

I'll grant you that, but...

A woman of the same strength (important in weight) and height as a male will be heavier.

...now you get into territory that caused a big stir at rpg.net.  The fact is that women are weaker then men, and that the strongest women doesn't come anywhere near the strongest man.

I just wanted to avoid all that mess, and simplify to a number.  Frankly, I really don't mind if my players choose their height & weight, as long as they don't do truly silly things w/o explanation.  Say, like a dwarvish pict w/a longbow. :-)

Those ideal body weights are pretty meaningless, especially for strong people, how many body builders fit into their ideal weight range?

The link goes into that as well - the numbers are just something simple, and are indeed broken when you hit extremes.  "Meaningless", though, is awful strong.  There really aren't that many body-builders busting the curve out there; there are far more obese people.

-Jeff

P.S.  Forgot something: I did state before, and I state again, that strength over average should add to weight.

[Furious D]

P.S.  Forgot something: I did state before, and I state again, that strength over average should add to weight.

I agree, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for two 5'10" males with the same endurance to weigh the same when one has a strength of 3 and the other a strength of 7.

[Bankuei]

Perhaps it would be better if we were looking at some other standards for body weight.  I could see swimmers, runners, hikers, military, and rowers being excellent examples for the adverturing sorts(both male and female).  Of course, this also links in for a big difference when it comes to ethnicity, and just random genetics that some groups of people have for coming in all shapes and sizes even within a nuclear family.

Chris

[Furious D]

Perhaps it would be better if we were looking at some other standards for body weight.  I could see swimmers, runners, hikers, military, and rowers being excellent examples for the adverturing sorts(both male and female).  Of course, this also links in for a big difference when it comes to ethnicity, and just random genetics that some groups of people have for coming in all shapes and sizes even within a nuclear family.

Chris

I think the current system would work well enough if it factored in strength (muscle mass) in weight.  Differences in ethnicities would pretty much be accounted for (because those differences are reflected in the changes to stats already).

[Bob Richter]

P.S. Bob, I would never allow someone who was 4'11" use a longbow.  I would certainly, even happily allow them to change their height around, especially if their strength supported it.

P.P.S. Bob, was your pictish archer's str 5? That's min for a longbow.

For a 5' tall person, drawing a longbow will be a challenge, but I think it can work (as I said, she has to hold it at an angle to operate it.) Yes, her strength is 5. She's in my initial post, if you'll recall.

...now you get into territory that caused a big stir at rpg.net.  The fact is that women are weaker then men, and that the strongest women doesn't come anywhere near the strongest man.

Forget population averaging and min/maxing for a moment. Yes, sexual dimorphism is real. But take you. Give you wider hips (change your genitalia out if you like,) then give you breasts.

Now, has your weight gone UP, or DOWN? :)

D pointed out to me when we were discussing it that players' social prejudices tend to reflex sexual dimorphism without the system even trying. I'm content to leave it at that.