[Forge Midwest]Interview with Ron Edwards

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Daniel,

It's wonderfully articulated ... the problem is, I'm not the right person to help you. I don't have the same background and influences, I'm not hip to the ins and outs of the editions and revisions of the core WW games, and furthermore, I don't know the new Storyteller rules hardly at all, on the chance that you're using those.

Geez ... well, here. We're at the Forge, after all, where "actual play" was originally privileged as a topic of dialogue, and where it was later elevated to be the only acceptable basis for theoretical discussion. So let's use it.

I think you should start a solid, not necessarily long Actual Play thread about (a) a relevant past experience, good or bad; and (b) your hopes and plans for the upcoming game, pretty much as stated here. You'll get responses! I know one amazing German who will probably respond with a veritable manual (Hi Frank!). There are a lot of people here who've wrestled with the same issue. I think that will result in 100-times more useful and more empathic dialogue than I'll be able to provide.

Best, Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rob (brainwipe),

Thanks for the kind comments.

It might interest you to know that, despite your self-description of just dipping into the Forge once in a while, you are exactly the kind of participant who is doing the most for the vision here, or even (to kick a very old and tired phrase into taking one more trembling step) "for the hobby."

Really. Take a look at your posts. Comments, feedback, attention to others' needs, gaining inspiration from others and acknowledging when you do ... Fantastic. It's not surprising you responded to the passion in the interview, because it's your passion too.

Best, Ron

[HighmoonMedia]

Hello, Ron. And thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Thanks for the suggestion to do the Actual Play thread; I'll take it and get that started during the weekend. That'll also give me time to both recall particular events I want to avoid this time around, and to organize my thoughts about the new game we're about to start.

I've been discussing your interview on a blog post comment thread from my buddy Mick Bradley (of the various podcasts at the Harping Monkey) and I've run the gamut of emotions there, from my knee-jerk reaction to actually thinking about what was said, which is what led me to come here directly. Mick said something in a recent reply to my last comment that really made it all snap into place, especially in regards to the Storyteller system since Mick also grappled with that system much like I did.

... you're asking about how the WW system fails to support Story Now, or in some sense, maybe you're asking what WW does to actually HINDER it - well, I don't think it does. But it also doesn't do anything in-game to promote or reward it, and I think that's the point. The flavor text and the fiction in the books are all about story, but the mechanics are story-neutral. They do not reward it in-play, unless you count getting XP for "good roleplaying" but that in my opinion is not quite the same thing. My point is, there is no mechanics resource that a player can use to affect the story directly, except actual roleplay, and frankly, that might affect the story VERY deeply with some Storytellers and groups, but it might amount to banging your head against a wall with other Storytellers/groups. The power to affect story is in the players hands only if the Storyteller allows it to be - and if and when the Storyteller allows it to be, it has nothing to do with the game system and everything to do with the personality and whim of the Storyteller. And in that sense, it's not real power, because it can be taken away or applied unevenly at a whim.

Which of course makes me go, "Shit, he's right, and so is Ron." Because it really wasn't a matter of whether we were havign fun in the game or not, but of how was the game enabling us (if at all) to have that fun. I was looking at it from the wrong angle.

Mick then brings in this:

We all wonder, 'why are you [story-game proponents] so pissed at systems like White Wolf? They inspire rich story in their setting and flavor text, and the rules are simple enough to get out of our way and let us tell our story." And it becomes a badge of honor to say, "there are lots of times we don't even ever roll dice, all night long!"

Hey, I've been that guy and part of me still is. But the thing is, what I think The Forge and Ron and so many others who've been growing the story games movement over the past seven years, what they're saying is, "If you have to get your system out of the way in order to go into story mode, then you need a new system that actually can be used IN story mode."

And just like that, and coupled with Matt's post above, I realize how, yes I was having fun, but the system had nothing to do with it, because at the end of the day, we really were throwing it aside; it wasn't doing anything special for us, even if it didn't actually hinder us directly.

I realize this is coming across as an out-loud mental discourse (which I guess it's precisely what it is), but yeah, now I can see what Story Now means and I think I have a couple of ideas of how to achieve it even if I'm gonna be using a system that, however revised and improved it may be, still doesn't actually target mechanically ways to foster story in the game, just provides some good guidelines for character creation then essentially functions as a dice-rolling mechanism.

On the other topic I broached, I'm gonna go and read up on the Publishing forum to see what I can get out of it. Though I currently only publish supplements, the process is still the same, and I do have a couple of full games brewing as well, so the info should come in quite handy.

Ok, so next step is to start that AP thread. I'll post a link here once I have it going. Thanks a lot for the mental stimuli and for the help, Matt and Ron.

[Matt Snyder]

And just like that, and coupled with Matt's post above, I realize how, yes I was having fun, but the system had nothing to do with it, because at the end of the day, we really were throwing it aside; it wasn't doing anything special for us, even if it didn't actually hinder us directly.

Yes! Mick's comments align very nicely with my own, and form the large part of what I was getting at about the system.

I look forward to you posting in Actual Play and getting good feedback.

Thanks!
Matt

[Mick Bradley]

Holy crap, Daniel, I didn't actually expect that anything I wrote would be helpful. But thank you.

Um, hi, everyone. I don't know what I should try to write in my very first post on the Forge, but, um, I'm Mick Bradley. Thanks to all you theorists and game designers for doing what was so badly needed - to make story play better and more fun. I honor you all.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Mick!

I tend to stay away from blogspace, but I went and took a peek at your stuff. Talk about feeling honored! Thanks to you for your thoughts & representation & walking the walk.

Did we all just get into the huggy "I love you man" phase of the tequila party? I think we did!

Best, Ron

[Lance D. Allen]

Hey Daniel,

From someone who's been on the other side of the fence, this realization is sometimes painful, but it's necessary to really start getting everything you want out of gaming.

By other side of the fence, I mean I played and enjoyed WW games immensely, and I thought I was telling a story and all that, much the same as you. The major difference was that I was mostly following the rules as written, but what was happening wasn't story. My realization wasn't that WW's mechanics weren't meeting my needs and were simply "getting out of the way" so much as it was realizing that my needs were not, in fact, Story Now.

My preferences are evolving, and I'm not sure White Wolf would meet my needs any longer. But realizing the effect that mechanics have on the play has allowed me to find, and fully enter the process of designing, games that meet my needs. I am now finally, after years of bitterness, learning to play D&D and enjoy it for what it does well.

It's funny how it seems that these journeys of realization often begin with arriving here at the Forge, and deciding that we need to prove Ron Edwards wrong...

[HighmoonMedia]

From someone who's been on the other side of the fence, this realization is sometimes painful, but it's necessary to really start getting everything you want out of gaming.
[...]
My preferences are evolving, and I'm not sure White Wolf would meet my needs any longer. But realizing the effect that mechanics have on the play has allowed me to find, and fully enter the process of designing, games that meet my needs. I am now finally, after years of bitterness, learning to play D&D and enjoy it for what it does well.

Hi, Wolfen. I was reading through the new WoD and Vampire books, preparing for my upcoming game, and I was like, "Wow, I totally see it now in the text." Even just thinking about D&D I can now also see better what I already knew were its strengths and how the mechanics foster what it is intended for.

It's funny how it seems that these journeys of realization often begin with arriving here at the Forge, and deciding that we need to prove Ron Edwards wrong...

It might be like an unspoken right of passage of sorts.  :-)

Did we all just get into the huggy "I love you man" phase of the tequila party? I think we did!

I very much think so, yes.

[Mick Bradley]

Well, thanks to all of you guys for making my week.

I hope to meet as many of you as are coming in Indy!

[brainwipe]

Did we all just get into the huggy "I love you man" phase of the tequila party? I think we did!

I like you mate, but not in that way.