Alternate Health System for d20 Martial Arts

[jag]

I think one problem you'll find for point 2 (making heroes hard to hit via large defensive bonuses) is combats with a whole lot of dice rolling and few hits.  While in a movie these flurry of blows are exciting, in d20 they tend to be, well, boring.

Part of the issue is that in d20 when you miss neither you nor the opponent is affected.  In movies, although that blow might not have hit, it may have moved the defender back, pushed him off balance, set him up for a follow up strike, or left the attacker exposed for a counter-strike.   And it looks cool.

I don't know of any small modification to d20 that solves this.  One possibility would be to abstract the concept of hit/miss a bit, so that both unarmed hits and 'misses' that negatively affected the defender's position were accounted for similarly.  In your system, it would seem that 'hit points' would be the relevant measure.  But damage to them should be more temporary, so that if you turned the tables on your opponent you'd get some/most of the hit points back.  Then when an opponent's hp were exhausted, any blow could be considered lethal.  In order to do this, you might have to reduce the amount of hps compared to a standard d20 system, make some 'flow of battle' mechanic that restores hps or sloshes them between combatants, and not increase the defense as you suggested.

In general, i think it's hard to make the standard d20 combat mechanic very cinematic.  Making a single hit by a lethal weapon lethal is a good start, but just making the defense of heroes very high will just make it a crap-shoot as to who gets that lucky hit in first.  Revamping it to give more tactical choice is a good thing to do, and something i've been working on for a while...

james

[jag]

So after posting i noticed the 6+ posts right after that had already said what i posted.  Whoops.  Here are some hopefully more contemporary responses:

Stats:  One possible guide to stats is to take various exemplary heroes in your genre, and think about what intrinsic property makes them so cool.  Simon's (?) suggestion of using both Agility and Speed is good on this account -- the wuxia films often have the very nimble swordsman and the one who's extremely swift.  Guile is also good for this purpose.  I would suggest that Intelligence (being raw mental power) might not pass this test -- but the wise master, or wise swordsman that can see into his opponent's strategy/etc does feature prominently.  Strength i've rarely seen portrayed as the major trait of a hero (although often of an adversary), but it's an easy one of use anyway.  Perception, tho important, is rarely a defining quality -- it might be better as a skill.

Classes:  I like classes! Um, my feeling is that players do too.  They're also fun to design.  But if you don't like them, don't keep them.  Be aware though that they perform an important role in D&D, making sure that every character has something unique to contribute to the party.  Your game might work differently, but look out for situations where one character is simply better than another.  That's no fun to play.

I think classes are good for some settings. The problem with classes is differentiating the range of character abilities along lines that make sense for establishing various "classes". In my setting martial arts means a philosophy as well as a fighting style. So even those who carry out political, religious, or scholarly duties, rather then being fighters, will still have a basic knowledge of martial arts. So I can't have a class such as "martial artist", because that's everyone, to one degree or another.
So what's next? Divide classes by style of fighting or types of weapons used? Right now I have a system that sets out 10 different styles/schools of martial arts, with each style consisting of 10 different moves/bonuses called maneuvers. The system is pretty free-form in how you choose what maneuvers your character learns, allowing a single character to choose maneuvers from across all 10 styles/schools, but providing perks to those who specialize in just one. Additionally, I want the usefulness of various maneuvers to not be limited by what sort of weapon your character chooses to wield.
I guess classes could simply be divided by occupation, but like I pointed out, it seems that there might not be enough variation there. For instance, where do you draw the line between an influential general and a political adviser who also happens to be particularly devoted to the martial arts? What about a samurai with a strong faith and a monk who is an accomplished fighter? It almost seems like it would be better to have feats like "Royal Favor" or "Faith", or even a stat to measure such things by degrees, rather than to have classes such as "Nobleman" or "Monk".

Perhaps you could consider classes more abstractly.  Instead of classes being devoted paths for a character, they could just represent spheres of study.  Ie, you could have several martial arts "classes" corresponding to your styles, perhaps one representing "dirty" fighting (poison, blowguns, ambushing, etc), one representing inner strength and determination and training like walking over coals, one representing uses of qi/ki to physically manifest force, one for medicine and herbs, one for acrobatics and the crazy jumps/flying, etc.  Then each character would have several 'levels' of various classes, representing their mix of skills.  So everyone would have a few levels in some marial arts classes, but from their they may be the wise doctor, sneaky assassin, or just do more martial arts to be the badass fighter.  That way they are less restrictive, and more descriptive of what the character knows.  ("I have studied shaolin long fist for 7 years under the great master Whoever, triple-staff under Whoever Jr, then medicine and the inner arts under Otherperson, then...")

[Vulpinoid]

Perhaps you could consider classes more abstractly.  Instead of classes being devoted paths for a character, they could just represent spheres of study.  Ie, you could have several martial arts "classes" corresponding to your styles, perhaps one representing "dirty" fighting (poison, blowguns, ambushing, etc), one representing inner strength and determination and training like walking over coals, one representing uses of qi/ki to physically manifest force, one for medicine and herbs, one for acrobatics and the crazy jumps/flying, etc.  Then each character would have several 'levels' of various classes, representing their mix of skills.  So everyone would have a few levels in some marial arts classes, but from their they may be the wise doctor, sneaky assassin, or just do more martial arts to be the badass fighter.  That way they are less restrictive, and more descriptive of what the character knows.  ("I have studied shaolin long fist for 7 years under the great master Whoever, triple-staff under Whoever Jr, then medicine and the inner arts under Otherperson, then...")

That's not a bad idea, perhaps you could define five "classes" indicating study of the traditional Chinese elements [earth, fire, metal, water, wood]. Accumulate levels and knowledge in each of these elements might provide access to certain benefits. Then you could have "mundane classes" as a separate group to reflect the bonuses gained by people who haven't chosen to study the ways of elemental enlightenment. Most characters would probably have a few elemental levels and a few mundane.

V   

[masqueradeball]

Just as a suggestion: Living Room Games was going to produce a D20 version of Street Fighter (you know, the video game) and they addressed a lot of the same issues that your dealing with here. Though all the details were vague, I know they were going to use some kind of gauge for defense that lowered the more you got attacked as well as using a piece-meal class system where your fighting style would be one part of your class, your background another and your body type yet another and the combination of various factors would determine how you changed over various levels. I'm not sure if this design updates are still available on their sight, but you might want to check it out.

[Simon C]

I think there have been some good suggestions about classes.  They're a fun part of the game, so I think if there's a way to integrate them into your design, it's a good idea.  I take your point that since the whole game is about fighting, having a "fighting" class seems a bit redundant.  But really, the same is true of D&D.  A lot of care has been taken to give each class a role in a fight.  Perhaps you can take this approach as well?  Here are some ideas for unique abilities that could be used in a fight:

General:  They're not usually the protagonist, but a lot of Wu-xia movies feature generals of vast armies.  Why not make this a class?  They could have a per day ability (or per encounter, or whatever) to summon "swarms" of soldiers.  The soldiers just come running over the horizon, ready for a fight.  This is how it seems to work in the movies, anyhow. 

Ninja Assassin:  These guys are a staple of the genre, jumping out at the last minute to dish out the damage.  Sneak Attacks and flanking pretty much cover the rules needed for this class.

Sword Princess:  In this game, the "tank" is not the character who is armoured up and built like a rhino, it's the young girl with windswept hair and twin machetes.  The Sword Princess knows that, no matter what, you just can't touch her.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that D&D classes map pretty well onto some useful combat roles.  "Scholar Monks" could have abilities that buff their allies like a Cleric, "Sword Princesses" could soak up damage, and become whirlwinds of destruction like a Barbarian.  Don't make the analogues too close though. 

I think spells would be really fun in the "big scale" combats against masses of soldiers as well.  "Burning Hands" feels much cooler when it's sheets of flames that cover a football field, rather than a bathroom sized area.

[Nathan W]

Thanks for the replies people!

One possible guide to stats is to take various exemplary heroes in your genre, and think about what intrinsic property makes them so cool.  Simon's (?) suggestion of using both Agility and Speed is good on this account -- the wuxia films often have the very nimble swordsman and the one who's extremely swift.  Guile is also good for this purpose.  I would suggest that Intelligence (being raw mental power) might not pass this test -- but the wise master, or wise swordsman that can see into his opponent's strategy/etc does feature prominently.  Strength i've rarely seen portrayed as the major trait of a hero (although often of an adversary), but it's an easy one of use anyway.  Perception, tho important, is rarely a defining quality -- it might be better as a skill.

I've done some thinking about this since my last post. I think I'm going to follow some of the suggestions that have been made and split Agility into 2 different stats measuring nimbleness and speed. Thanks guys for the idea! I'm also going to drop Intelligence, as has been suggested, folding it's uses into Perception and Guile. This also illustrates one of the reasons I think Perception is important enough to warrant being an ability score. Perception involves insight, not only into your immediate surroundings, but also into tactical, political, and social situations. I think that makes it important enough to be one of your character's primary stats. Combining Perception and Intelligence strengthens this concept and fits thematically with the Asian cultural ideal of "enlightenment".

Regarding Classes: Those are some good ideas for how I could include classes in my game. I realize that classes can be fun for players, but as a player and a GM I find that I am often frustrated at how classes can limit the options for character building. I'll give due consideration to your suggestions, but I'll have to see how other aspects of the game develop first, before I decide rather or not there is room for classes.

Allow me to elaborate a little on some of my goals for character building. As I've mentioned before, there will be 10 fighting "styles", each consisting of 10 techniques. Techniques will be a variety of special moves and bonuses. Some of these moves and bonuses will be triggered by various events in combat, such as a critical hit, etc.
A lot of the techniques are original in their concept and mechanics. However, some of them are nearly identical in function to feats and class abilities from d20. For example: Blind-Fight, Evasion, Quick Draw, and Sneak Attack are all techniques of one style or another.
Any character may learn techniques from one or more styles, allowing for a great variety in how each character behaves in a combat situation.
One thing I am trying to pay special attention to is the idea that the majority of the techniques from any style of fighting will be useful regardless of other character preferences, such as choice of weapon. Another thing I want to avoid is stereotyping any one style as the preferred style for a particular kind of fighter. For example, one style focuses on a philosophy of very quick and accurate attacks. This lends itself well to the M.O. of a ninja, but there's no reason why another kind of fighter might not also find it effective. In other words, I don't want people to say "I'm a ninja, so I know (blank) style martial arts." On the other hand, I don't want people to say "I know (blank) style martial arts, so I'm a ninja." That's one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to associate these kinds of abilities with a single class.

[Simon C]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea.

I think if you take a look at some d20 supplements, you'll probably find a myriad of different ways of doing this, if you want to port directly.  D20 Modern's Class Feature Trees (or whatever they're called) would be one approach to this, where each school of fighting has a "tree" of abilities, so as you buy into a school, you get more and more options about what abilities to get, and you get access to more powerful abilities.  This would be a good way to ensure that all schools are open to everyone, while rewarding characters who are devoted to a small number of schools.  That's a good way to ensure niche protection.

"Iron Heroes" gets rave reviews for class abilities that are really exciting to use in play, and lead to cinematic "stunt" combats.  They'd be cool to look at for sources of inspiration, but I think maybe they're not so close to what you're looking for, because each type of ability uses a different type of token.  Extensive mixing and matching of different abilities could leave you with a confusing myriad of different tokens.

That said, you could do some really neat things with tokens.  You've said that you're thinking about having "action points" or the like.  What about using these points more extensively, to power special abilities?  You could have a generic type of token, which regenerates regularly, but that's kinda boring.   Here's what I'd do if this were my game (which it's not, and you should feel free to ignore me).

Have five kinds of token, each tied to an element from the chinese elemental system (or invent your own for your setting).  These tokens are used to power special abilities.  Different types of ability require different elements to power them.  Some require a pure element, but maybe others require a combination of elements.  Each element also has a single use that's not tied to an ability.  Maybe Water lets you re-roll a d20, Wood restores hit points, Fire adds +2 to any roll, Air lets you, I don't know... ...maybe increases your defence by a lot for one round?  That sounds too specific though.  Anyway, divide up what "Action Points" would do among the elements.  Now, to restore points.  Each of the chinese elements is tied to certain types of emotion and behaviour.  I'm not sure of exactly the best way to do this, but here's something stolen from Fate: the GM can "bribe" the players with points of particular elements to act in accordance with that emotion.  For example, Fire is associated with anger.  In a tense scene, the GM can hold out one or more fire tokens to one or any player, and say "I think you're angry enough to throw a punch"  If the character throws a punch (it's the player's choice), they'll get the tokens. 

That might be giving the GM more control over the characters than you're comfortable with, but I like the way it makes specialists in a particular type of element more inclined to act in accordance with that element, since they need those tokens.  It kind of relies on the GM to keep offering bribes though.  You might want a way for players to claim tokens for other reasons too.

[jag]

I might suggest the name "Insight" instead of "Perception", as it feels to me to encompass more of the mental aspects you're incorporating.  But it also deëmphasizes the, well, perception aspects, so maybe it's not what you want.

It's not a bad idea to worry about classes slightly later.  However, a lot of d20 is based implicitly on classes -- you can ditch them and rewrite that structure, but it might be an easier way to go to modify it to fit your needs.  You could view classes as just glorified feat-trees, rather than profession labels, and allow people to choose levels in a class independent of what they call themselves.  Thus, although most ninja will have many levels in the "Quick and accurate fighting style" class, so might the Taiqi boxer or a variety of other characters -- and ninja will also have some levels in "Poison and Stealth" class, where the Taiqi boxer wouldn't have such levels.

Or you could consider the Rolemaster version of classes, which basically just say how efficiently you can buy various skills.  Thus most characters can purchase most skills, but ninja would advance most rapidly in stealth, while bushi would advance most rapidly in sword-play.

Anyway, as you said, deal with this later, and ignore my advice when the time comes.

[Jarrod]

Though in the specific films you mentioned it's not an important factor, sit down and process about 30 or so grindhouse Kung fu masterpieces and you'll hear the same things over and over:

"I studied under Lo Pei, my style is invincible!"
"Now that I have killed my master, none shall secret the secret of Lotus Style!"
"Don't you see?! We're from the same school of martial arts!"

If you're looking for a flavorful class reinvention, I think the aforementioned division into the Chinese elements is a bit too Legend of the Five Rings. I heart L5R real swell, but it's not something you'd need to clone for your tone. Focusing on which monastaries and masters they studied under, and perhaps focusing on that instead or in addition to something more base like Ninja and Samurai. Those classes have been done so many times that you'll lose the distinct feel you're wanting at that point.

[Castlin]

Curious, did you look at how d20 Oriental Adventures handled martial arts? There was also a rather innovative approach to d20 martial arts in the Sleeping Imperium setting, where it was a skill and every rank taught you a new move in addition to making skill checks for various maneuvers.

I think you may be thinking too hard about hit points. Just make unarmed attack and "non-lethal" weapons deal less damage and make swords etc. deal a LOT of damage. Use the standard d20 definition of hp where it largely represents your ability to "roll with the punches" and absorb damage. You still drop when you hit 0. Its just an easier level of abstraction.

Agile Riposte could be a feat you would want to expand on.

There are rules in the DMG II for a d20 mob template for humanoids.

[Nathan W]

I might suggest the name "Insight" instead of "Perception", as it feels to me to encompass more of the mental aspects you're incorporating.

Just a little tweak, but sometimes it is the little things that count. Thanks for the idea. I believe I'll use it, especially since that ability will be the basis for how many skills you get and such, focusing on the mental aspect of it might be a good idea.

Anyway, as you said, deal with this later, and ignore my advice when the time comes.

Nah, I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten so far and I'm sure I'll make use of a good bit of it. Thanks for the help.

I think the aforementioned division into the Chinese elements is a bit too Legend of the Five Rings. I heart L5R real swell, but it's not something you'd need to clone for your tone.

Yeah, I agree that it's a bit L5R, which is a pretty good game, but not exactly what I'm going for. I want my game to fall more into the category of "legend" whether than "myth". In other words, while the heroes may perform superhuman feats of bravery and skill, I'm aiming to leave out the Asian mysticism. At least for now.

Focusing on which monastaries and masters they studied under, and perhaps focusing on that instead or in addition to something more base like Ninja and Samurai.

That's a neat idea. I already have some very basic rules that grant advantages based on whom, if anyone, you study under. As the game progresses though, I may look for ways to expand that aspect.

Curious, did you look at how d20 Oriental Adventures handled martial arts? There was also a rather innovative approach to d20 martial arts in the Sleeping Imperium setting, where it was a skill and every rank taught you a new move in addition to making skill checks for various maneuvers.

There are rules in the DMG II for a d20 mob template for humanoids.

Thanks for the additional references. I've browsed through Oriental Adventures, but it was a while ago.

Thanks for all of the ideas and suggestions!

Right now I'm working on detailing the 10 fighting styles and all of the techniques that belong to each of them. Here's a basic description of each style:

   Bear's Paw: Focuses on strength and raw power, overwhelming your opponent with sheer force.
   Circle's Edge: Focuses on fighting defensively and countering attacks, using your opponent's own actions against them.
   Eagle's Wings: Focuses on being light-footed and acrobatic, harnessing the warrior's spirit to defy gravity.
   Iron Body: Focuses on holistic wellbeing, perfecting the body to improve resistances and defense.
   Lightning's Flash: Focuses on speed and decisive action, combining initiative with tactical prowess.
   Moon's Shadow: Focuses on deception and guile, using illusions and trickery to catch your opponent off guard.
   Python's Tail: Focuses on close quarters fighting, restricting your opponent's actions by invading their fighting space.
   Scorpion's Sting: Focuses on cunning attacks with pin-point accuracy, taking advantage of an opponent's most vulnerable spots.
   Soul's Fist: Focuses on spirit and willpower, channeling the warrior's spirit to augment his attacks.
   Spider's Web: Focuses on being alert and aware of your surroundings, as well as on using your environment to your advantage.

Do those sound interesting and varied enough? Am I overlooking anything important?

[Edgar]

This might be a little late to pipe in. Just a little flavor note on fighting styles... since I've done  a little bit of historical research on those.

0) names are the key

In general, style names fall ino one of several categories.
- Family - e.g. Hung family fist, Yang family spear
- Animal imitation - Preying Mantis, Eagle Claw
- An ideal or philosophical term - Six harmony spear, Cotton fist, Heart intent fist
- A simple desctiption - Tumbling boxing, Eighteen elbows
- and the oddball style name - Eighteen saints boxing, South gate boxing, Wudan mountain sword

1) where are they going?

An often heard expression is "many paths, only one mountaintop". Do you want martial arts styles to diverge from a common template, or converge to a common goal?

2) where did they come from?

Certain areas, families or institutions can be famous for certain fighting styles. e.g. "northern legs, southern arms" and so on. 

3) what special skills do they encompass?

For example historical martial arts had skills with fanciful names such as "Pulling out a mountain", "Cinnabar palms" and "Light body". These would add to flavor.

4) special folklore in the art?

Did the founder witness the fight between a crane and a snake? Or was the founder a sickly boy who was prevented from hanging himself by a wandering wise man and taught matrial arts? Are two styles' practicioners automatically mortal enemies?

5) what is their role in society?

Many times in history skilled fighters were considered to be the lowest of the low. Is practicing martial arts a crime in some regions? Are there public schools? Perhaps the public schools are run by charlatans.


of course all of this is just food for thought and not clear answers. But if you like I can post a list of historical names for skills and arts.

[Nathan W]

This might be a little late to pipe in. Just a little flavor note on fighting styles... since I've done  a little bit of historical research on those.

Not to late. Thanks for the input!

0) names are the key

I'll admit that the names I listed above are just something I pulled off the top of my head because I needed some kind of label to use for each one. They may change as development progresses. If there was any ones in particular that you thought reeked of cheesiness feel free to point them out. I'm not too sensitive.

1) where are they going?

Ah, that's a good philosophical question. I hadn't given it much thought. I think that each style has its own ideal of ultimate achievement. For example, Soul's Fist has the ultimate goal of merging the fighters body and spirit into one cohesive whole, harmonizing the physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of the warrior. On the other hand, Spider's Web has the goal of becoming perfectly in tune with your surroundings. This includes harmony with nature and harmony within your social circle as well.

2) where did they come from?

I fully intend to develop at least minimal back story for each fighting style, but right now I'm focusing primarily on the mechanics of the game rather than the setting.

3) what special skills do they encompass?

Many of them are actually feats and class abilities taken from standard d20. For example, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge are both techniques of the Spider's Web style. Giving these more flavorful names might not be a bad idea, and it would certainly help invoke the tone I want my game to have.

4) special folklore in the art?

See 2).

5) what is their role in society?

In the setting for my game, martial arts are an integral part of society. The principles behind the arts are applied to everything from politics and social functions to art and the crafts. Everyone, from the lowest peasant to the highest court official, is expected to understand at least the basic philosophy behind one or more martial arts styles. Among the wealthy and the literate these are taught formally by a master of the art. Among the lowly and the poor these are passed from parent to child simply as morals and outlooks on life, sometimes without even discussing how they may apply to physical combat. I'm trying to reflect this not only in the setting, but in the mechanics of the game to the extent possible.

But if you like I can post a list of historical names for skills and arts.

Sure! It can't hurt to have more info on the subject. Thanks for your response.