[Escape from Illeria] Cost/Profit question

[Simons]

[Graham W]

url=http://www.bigstockphoto.com]Big Stock Photo[/url]. I'm very happy with them.

So, from my limited experience and knowledge:

1. You needn't necessarily assume you need the ISBN or registration with the US Copyright Office. Are those things you could do later, if it took off?
2. How are you doing layout? That might be an extra cost. And perhaps editing. You might consider conventions as an additional cost.
3. Compared with figures I've seen for moderately successful games, I think 32 sales sounds plausible, if you're committing to promoting the game, playing it at conventions and so on. (Another way to think of it might be: can you afford to lose X amount of money if it doesn't sell? If you can, then take the risk.)
4. I think there's room for cutting costs more, if you wanted to. You could, for example, use public domain artwork or stock artwork, bought from websites. That might force you into certain design decisions, however.
5. Price is very subjective: if you ask "Should a game like this be selling for more than $15", everyone will give you a different answer. Perhaps try comparing it with similar products: looking at IPR's front page, prices vary from $20 (The Committee For The Exploration Of Mysteries and Blood And Bronze) upwards; and I know that Don't Rest Your Head and Lacuna sell for $15.
6. Play your game a lot, especially at conventions, to promote it. Try to forge links with other publishers: play their game and encourage them to play yours.

Do also search backwards through the Forge for old threads. There's lots of information there.

I stand to be corrected by those with more experience, of course.

GrahaBig Stock Photo. I'm very happy with them.

So, from my limited experience and knowledge:

1. You needn't necessarily assume you need the ISBN or registration with the US Copyright Office. Are those things you could do later, if it took off?
2. How are you doing layout? That might be an extra cost. And perhaps editing. You might consider conventions as an additional cost.
3. Compared with figures I've seen for moderately successful games, I think 32 sales sounds plausible, if you're committing to promoting the game, playing it at conventions and so on. (Another way to think of it might be: can you afford to lose X amount of money if it doesn't sell? If you can, then take the risk.)
4. I think there's room for cutting costs more, if you wanted to. You could, for example, use public domain artwork or stock artwork, bought from websites. That might force you into certain design decisions, however.
5. Price is very subjective: if you ask "Should a game like this be selling for more than $15", everyone will give you a different answer. Perhaps try comparing it with similar products: looking at IPR's front page, prices vary from $20 (The Committee For The Exploration Of Mysteries and Blood And Bronze) upwards; and I know that Don't Rest Your Head and Lacuna sell for $15.
6. Play your game a lot, especially at conventions, to promote it. Try to forge links with other publishers: play their game and encourage them to play yours.

Do also search backwards through the Forge for old threads. There's lots of information there.

I stand to be corrected by those with more experience, of course.

Graham

[MatrixGamer]

You are planning to sell 32 of these games. Do you really need to register it at the copyright office or buy an ISBN? Neither of those will help with your sales and given that the copy right will exist even if it isn't registered (NOTE: I'm not laywer but I think it is automatic) do you need to shell that out? The money might be better spent on more cool art work -which could add value to your game.

Honestly I'm not certain where ISBNs help any small press. Do you need them to sell on Amazon? Maybe but I think I saw something that showed you didn't even need it there.

ISBNs and registered copyrights really only seem to matter when larger sales come into it or you're selling through the book distribution system. (I don't think the game distributors need them - not that I would know, never having sold to them before!)

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

[Simons]

Sorry for not responding sooner.  I have 3 questions about your responses (if any of these should be in a different thread, let me know, since they all go in slightly different directions):

1) I guess in terms of copyright, I've got a question.  Lots of people say they don't have it or I don't need it.  Who on this list has actually registered their game with the copyright office?  Does anyone have a "Boy, I'm so glad I did that," or a "Shoot, I wish I had copyrighted it," story?  Or is this really something that no one has ever needed or been glad they had?  (and I would even be interested in big-sellers, just to understand what copyrighting a book does in de-facto life)  I ask in part because every game I looked at on Lulu had a copyright page at the front. 

2) It's not that I'm planning on selling 32 copies.  It's that I want to at least break even, and I'm wondering how best to do that.  If the copyright really isn't needed, then it means I will only need to sell 28 books.  On the other hand, if I decided to double my current art budget, it would mean needing to sell 60 copies. 

I guess my question is this: Is there any ways to project what your sales will be (more-or-less), or is it just a shot in the dark?  Is there any way to estimate "if I spend $120 on cover art, that will increase my sales by between 10 and 50%," or is the effect of artwork also just a shot in the dark?  Is there a way to figure out how price will affect sales, or is that a shot in the dark?  I don't need exact numbers, but some amount of numbers would be better than, "If you buy some artwork, it will boost your sales, if you buy lots of expensive artwork, it will boost your sales more," which is most of what I've found thus far.

(Another way to think of it might be: can you afford to lose X amount of money if it doesn't sell? If you can, then take the risk.)

Perhaps this is just the advice I have to take.  It's very good advice, I just can't help but feel a little unnerved by how much uncertainty there is here (although, perhaps this is just coming from me as a math major and the son of an accountant).

3) How does it affect things if I can't actually do a huge amount of continuous promotion, and don't go to conventions?  (I'm about to start a job that is kind of all-consuming, and will take place in a country where people don't game.  I'll try to do it when I get back, but until then I'm kind of stuck with what I've done before hand.)

Simon

PS Having read former posts (Graham, thanks for the link), I see that probably an ISBN is not needed, since Amazon or Boarders seem out of the picture. 

[Paul Czege]

Hey Simon,

Have you had much play of the game beyond yourself and close friends? Have you turned anyone who isn't a close friend into an enthusiast for the game? And not just for the concept, or clever mechanics, but for the play experience?

From your posts, I have the concept that Escape from Illeria is a party skirmish game? Is that right? How long does it take to play out a skirmish? And what do you think is more fun about it than, say, Warhammer 40K?

Paul

[Valamir]

1) I guess in terms of copyright, I've got a question.  Lots of people say they don't have it or I don't need it.  Who on this list has actually registered their game with the copyright office?  Does anyone have a "Boy, I'm so glad I did that," or a "Shoot, I wish I had copyrighted it," story?  Or is this really something that no one has ever needed or been glad they had?  (and I would even be interested in big-sellers, just to understand what copyrighting a book does in de-facto life)  I ask in part because every game I looked at on Lulu had a copyright page at the front.

Everything you write is automatically copyrighted (to the extent its copyrightable) as soon as you publish it (where "publish" simply means, "make it available to others"...so this sentence that I just...is now 100% copyrighted by me.  Its important to note that your game's mechanics are not copyrightable...just the exact words you use to describe your game mechanics.

What registering your published material does (in the U.S.) is allow you to sue someone for infringement.  If you are not registered you cannot sue them.  So if someone infringes you, you have to register before you can file suit.  What's the difference between registering immediately and waiting until something happens (if it does)?  Well if you register AFTER the infringement takes place then you can only collect actual demonstratable damages.  If you register BEFORE the infringement takes place you can seek to collect court costs and putative damages as well.  Note...all of this information comes right off the U.S government copyright website which I suggest be your next stop.

So as to you questions...having a declaration of copyright page does NOT mean that the item has been registered.  You can declare copyright all you want...I hereby give notice that everything in this post is copyright Ralph Mazza 2007...its not necessary because everything in this post is copyright Ralph Mazza 2007 whether I declare it or not...but its a fairly traditional thing to do in books (because before the 1970s it was a necessary thing to do).  Therefor, do not take those Lulu books to indicate that they are registered...I'd be surprised if most of them are (and note registering also requires sending best edition copies to the Library of Congress).  I did not register Universalis.  I might register Robot & Rapiers because its a much more expensive project and has greater potential for infringement.

So question #1 for you is "if someone plagurized my book would you sue them for it?"  If not then registering is pointless. 

 

2) I guess my question is this: Is there any ways to project what your sales will be (more-or-less), or is it just a shot in the dark?  Is there any way to estimate "if I spend $120 on cover art, that will increase my sales by between 10 and 50%," or is the effect of artwork also just a shot in the dark?  Is there a way to figure out how price will affect sales, or is that a shot in the dark?  I don't need exact numbers, but some amount of numbers would be better than, "If you buy some artwork, it will boost your sales, if you buy lots of expensive artwork, it will boost your sales more," which is most of what I've found thus far.

There are no rules for that I'm afraid and you'll get a ton of conflicting anecdotes...especially alot of the useless ones from people who've never published and are just guessing.

Your sales will be more highly correlated to the amount of EFFORT you put into to marketing vs. the amount of dollars.  Talking about it on-line (which is more effective if you spend the time to participate in a non-sales mode first) getting people to do reviews, posting actual play reports, getting others to post actual play reports, having a forum where folks are actively discussing the game, will all lead to more sales than spending an extra $50 on your cover will.

The biggest hurdle for you will be saturation.  There was a time 3-4 years ago when indie-games were new and lots of people were clamoring for something different and there was very much a "if you build it, they will come" environment.  Today, if you actually want to have an ongoing stream of sales as part of your measure of success, you'll have to work a good bit harder to be noticed and to differentiate yourself.

As a data point, Universalis sold 100 copies in a couple of months and has since sold well over 1000 and still regularly sells 10-20/mo

[Simons]

[Paul Czege]

Hey Simon,

I'm with you. I like squad skirmish games better than army skirmish games. (I regret I never had a chance to try Inquisitor before GW idled it.) And I don't think 40K is a particularly fun game. (For lots of reasons, but mostly because I dislike the slop factor of measuring and adjudicating movement and ranges. It never seems like a victory is fair.)

My recommendation is to get some external playtesting. The point at which you have created a couple of enthusiasts for the game experience from folks who aren't your friends is the point at which you can confidently expect to sell 60 copies over the course of 12-15 months. At that point I think you should move forward on publishing it.

Paul

[Simons]

(and sorry, not Chuck, I meant to say Ralph, I didn't have this window open when I typed in my reply, and for some reason got your name confused with someone else's, and forgot to check).

[MatrixGamer]

The question about profit and loss isn't just the break even point on sales. I firmly believe that anyone can sell a hundred copies of pretty much anything (you just sell it to friends, people you run for at conventions and to people you meet in forums.) What we often leave out are convention costs and advertising. If you are at a con that cost $. If you were going to be there anyway then it's cool - your hobby doesn't have to pay for itself. Advertising for me usually means the cost of samples I send out to reviewers.

I well know that dream of selling a lot of my game. It certainly can happen. Ralph's Universalis hit well at the right time. My Matrix Games have been around a lot longer and have not had the same splash. Part of this is luck another is personality. I tend to be a reserved person and I know that has slowed down my progress. It gets a little off topic but I'd look at my "self" before art costs to gain a prediction of sales. The more you work it - hustle - the more you will sell. Anyone - even reserved people can sell 100 units, doing more, well... it takes more of "us".

I love skrimish games btw. Good luck!

Chris Engle
Hamster Press