Thoughts on a 'see-saw' or 'push-pull' Magic system

[opsneakie]

Okay, the rest of the ideas for my system might be in disorganized shambles right now, but I like this idea, so far. Briefly, this game is about telling sweeping, big stories in a fantasy world and about the characters; how they change, what they give up (or the nasty things they do) for power, and the clash of opposing forces (law/chaos, magic/technology, etc.)

I'm beginning to like the idea of a push/pull magic system. Essentially, the elements are very important in this setting, especially in their duality. Fire/Water, Earth/Air, and in this case Law/Chaos (the last needs renaming still). In a push-pull system, a player will have a pool of magical power, which is split between their magical schools. However, each pairing can only have a certain maximum size (let's say 10 for convenience here. So one player might go 5 Fire / 5 Water, while another might go 7 Fire / 3 Water, 0 Fire / 10 Water, etc. Now, during the course of their conflicts, they spend points from these pools to perform above and beyond. A bit of minor magic, like magically lighting a candle, doesn't require and pool expenditure, but making a fiery whip to lash out with sure does. As each point is expended, instead of being lost, it flips to the other side of the duality. If a player burns a Fire point throwing a fireball, and was 5 Fire / 5 Water, they're now 4 Fire / 6 Water. I'm thinking there would be some mechanic so that large imbalances were dangerous, so it would be in a player's advantage to learn to manipulate both sides of a duality, using the two opposing forces in unison.

As for Law/Chaos, I'm not sure they'd work quite the same way. In this setting, there's the safe kind of magic, ordered, comprehensible, and (more or less) static. Wild Magic / Chaos Magic, on the other hand, can do anything. It carries tremendous power, but it's kind of like the Dark Side of the Force. While you might be powerful, sooner or later, Wild Magic ends up controlling you. It is in the nature of wild magic to corrode and eat away at things, so a Wild Magic user would become less and less stable and human the more Wild Magic they used, thus bringing the players to a different dilemma. When faced with a difficult problem, do you resort to Wild Magic and risk corruption, or try to fight it off with weaker but safer powers?

Anyways, I hope this post isn't too much a mess, but what do you guys think of the push/pull style of mechanic? I'm starting to like it enough I might base the whole system that way. (I'm a freak for duality)

Sorry if this is spelled badly, incomprehensible, or stupid,

John.

[Vulpinoid]

Sorry if this is spelled badly, incomprehensible, or stupid,

No idea is stupid. There are just ideas that haven't been focused or properly harnessed yet.

Have you considered the idea that characters may focus on a specific element and may be able to use their element to their advantage, but when the see-saw swings, they suffer penalties associated with their opposite. On the fire-water axis, the more fire you use, the bigger your vulnerability to water becomes. You'd have to do some water flavoured things to tip the bgalance back to neutrality...and if you didn't have command of any water effects you might be eternally tipped toward fire.

Or maybe the swing naturally balances itself out like the regeneration of hit points. A mage can cast alternating fireballs and ice-bolts if they want to stay balanced...or they can cast a whole heap of fireballs but then they'd be really vulenarble to water effects until the energies in their body naturally corrected over time.

I'm just thinking of a couple of other options that seem to fit with where you're going.

V

[opsneakie]

Okay, I've got some more thoughts in order now, and this system is shaping into something I'm liking a little more.

So, continuing with fire/water (which I guess is the example axis), a fire mage would want to start a conflict with a high Fire pool, at the expense of Water. If a Water attack is launched at him, it is resisted by his Fire. As he spends Fire points to cast spells, his Fire decreases, meaning his resistance to Water abilities gets weaker and weaker. By using some Water abilities to re-balance, he not only gets his defenses more in order, but he also gets more Fire points to spend on his abilities. This example mage specializes in Fire spells, so that's where he gets the most bang.

[Grinning Moon]

I'm thinking there would be some mechanic so that large imbalances were dangerous...(snip)

Y'know, I realize this might not be what you were going for, but I had a thought with the above in mind:

You mentioned that you wanted something like Law/Chaos, but not in the same 'push-pull' axis vein as the rest of the magic. What if, instead, every magic duality have a second axis for Law/Chaos; weaker (more normal) spells brought you into the 'Law' portion of the axis, while powerful (more wild) spells brought you into the 'Chaos' portion of the axis.

That way it's still hazardous for me to (say) conjure a fiery construct to rampage through a town and then re-balance my elemental state by causing a massive avalanche to finish-off any survivors.

I envision all sorts of nasty things happening to players as they climb higher up the Chaos axis, depending on which elements they were messing with (with fire, for example, perhaps the player gets burning headaches, starts setting fire to things around them accidentally, spontaneously combusts here or there and has to spend a bunch of time and energy pulling themselves back together... or, if they climb too high on the axis, maybe one day they wake up and just plain explode like a low-yield nuclear warhead - and that's that for them).

[opsneakie]

Actually, that's almost exactly what I had in mind. I've been fleshing out this system a little more in my head and on paper, so I thought I'd dish this bit out.

I was thinking that Law/Chaos would function as a degeneration scale, kind of like Humanity in Vampire. So every time you have to call on Wild Magic, you risk degenerating down the scale, towards the point where you get completely consumed by the dangerous magics you're wielding. There would be ways to drag yourself back onto the law side of things, but it would be difficult, kind of like atoning to lose Dark Side points (wow, I have a lot of weird gaming metaphors. If anyone will understand it, you guys will).

My other thought was that these two push-pull axes will govern all character stuff, not just magic. So Air would represent physical and mental nimbleness and quickness of reaction, Earth would be brute strength and resilience, Fire would be courage, bravery, and martial prowess, and Water would be wisdom/intelligence, logic, and reason. Then players would spend these points back and forth in the style of WoD willpower to help out a roll, but the catch is, you're spending your ability points to get a benefit for one roll, so now you're tipping the balance, possibly weakening yourself for the next roll you have to make.

The new part that's sticking me is that this kind of thing doesn't deal with the character's resources getting exhausted well. In Shadow of Yesterday, for example, you're expending points out of your pools, and they need to be refreshed, but if every point you spend just tips you the other way on the scale, you can just wobble around happily forever.

Do I make spent points just go away, forcing rest and refreshment on the players, or do I do fatigue a different way.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas,

John.

[JB Mannon]

You could have a small list of simple spells/ablilties that corrispond to each element (and which also re-enforce the main behaviours you want players to have their characters doing) and using those build up the Law pool.  Then when players use Wild magic it would depleate that pool and build the Chaos pool.  This would allow players to invent new Wild magic spells whole cloth in the game while keeping that magic in check through the GM assigning that spell a cost.

[Narf the Mouse]

Here's a thought on keeping easy spellcasting down and thus make it harder to balance - Have spells cast to no purpose swing you farther towards Chaos. The more powerfull the spell and petty the reason, the more the swing to Chaos.

[Xerxes]

Here's a thought on keeping easy spellcasting down and thus make it harder to balance - Have spells cast to no purpose swing you farther towards Chaos. The more powerful the spell and petty the reason, the more the swing to Chaos.

Although how would you consider what a purpose for a spell is?  Is using telekinesis to untie your bootlaces a petty use?  It has a purpose, and that purpose is useful in its own way.  It might have to be GM discretion that decides it, which could lead to inconsistencies in play.

And a more general point, if you link attributes in with the type of magic used, you'll have to end up with behavioural changes.  How is that to be systemised?  The typical example is stuff like the virtues and humanity in WoD, but it's even more flexible than that; your character could swing from a hyperactive socialite to a withdrawn and peaceful introvert several times during a session.  Is that really what you want out of the game?

[opsneakie]

The way I envision magic is that petty reasons don't necessarily mean degeneration, but you can fall into Chaos by the use of certain spells and abilities. For example, to reach certain places (like the realm of the Dead), a caster needs to use some Chaos magic to get there. If they're in good control of themselves, they can avoid slipping down the slope into Wild Magic, but if they're not careful, even a little use of this magic can have harmful effects.

So, lacking a good way to keep attributes working with the swinging axes, do you all think I should make non-magical attributes their own thing, or should I try and figure out a way to make it work?

I'm not entirely convinced that all your attributes fluctuating over the course of the game would be a bad thing. Your character's personality would stay the same, but the things they're able to do would move around a bit. Say on the Fire/Water axes, the character is exhausted from fighting, their Fire goes down, their bravery/martial ability is depleted, but they can do other stuff now.

Also, I was thinking of doing wound levels as a penalty to maximum pool size; you take a wound, you lop the ends off your pools. So a Fire 7/Water 3 person takes one wound level and they effectively become Fire 6/Water 2, then Fire 5/Water 1, etc. This way characters still lose things as they become fatigued and wounded.

[Xerxes]

For example, to reach certain places (like the realm of the Dead), a caster needs to use some Chaos magic to get there. If they're in good control of themselves, they can avoid slipping down the slope into Wild Magic, but if they're not careful, even a little use of this magic can have harmful effects.

Just a side point, but I would make this more neutral rather than "order" magic being intrinsically good and "chaos" magic bein intrisically bad.  I'd let players choose their own balance and attitude for their characters.  Although that could also depend on what school of magic they're trained in, or similar.

So, lacking a good way to keep attributes working with the swinging axes, do you all think I should make non-magical attributes their own thing, or should I try and figure out a way to make it work?

Your character's personality would stay the same, but the things they're able to do would move around a bit.

This is true of physical characteristics, but with social and mental ones it becomes greyer.  For example, if someone becomes mellow through excessive use of water magic, they could become introspective to the point of catatonia, and so playing out characters being as talkative as ever would be bad roleplaying.  Do you see what I mean?

Also, I was thinking of doing wound levels as a penalty to maximum pool size

This is a decent idea, and the idea of "maximum pool sizes" being limited by player choice is an excellent way of tying attributes in with the levels of magic; if you have their initial attributes correspond to their maximum pool sizes but allow their actual pool sizes to fluctuate depending on their injury level it could work well.

And by "initial" I do not mean permanent.

[opsneakie]

This is a decent idea, and the idea of "maximum pool sizes" being limited by player choice is an excellent way of tying attributes in with the levels of magic; if you have their initial attributes correspond to their maximum pool sizes but allow their actual pool sizes to fluctuate depending on their injury level it could work well.

And by "initial" I do not mean permanent.

Ok, let me see if we're on the same page here. I roll up a character. Let's say each axis is 10 points here, for ease of math. I decide I like Fire better than water, so my initial balance is Fire 7 / Water 3. Then, i spend points to do my heroic stuff, but can refresh up to Fire 7 / Water 3 somehow. If I get wounded in a fight, my pool sizes go down, as a way of me getting weaker, right? But then it seems like the swinging effect gets lost a bit there. i.e. a spent point of Fire doesn't equal a gained point of water. My Fire 7 / Water 3 spends  a Fire point, but he can't gain a Water one because he's at his maximum Water.

I was thinking of having the players define initial values, to which their pools could be refreshed, via rest/healing/etc.

I'm not sure I'm sure what you mean here, so I'll answer the comment I know I can answer.


Chaos magic. It's not intrinsically bad per se, it's just uncontrollable. Chaos Magic is more like a character than a school of magic. It represents magic in its original, untamed formed, in a way that mortals cannot ever control. Chaos Magic has its own agenda (of sorts), and while a destructive force, I'm not sure I would say... OK, that's a lie. It's intrinsically bad. Chaos magic is the baddie here. While you might need to use it, and it can be used to accomplish good things, it will try to consume you. Part of the challenge to the character is staying alive without having to use chaos magic. The best analogy I can draw is that Chaos Magic is like the Dark Side of the Force. You could Force choke bad guys, and I guess you could make the argument that that's a good thing, but that doesn't stop the means from being evil. Like the Dark Side, Chaos is very powerful, and always tempting, waiting to be called.

Still not sure where you're going with the attribute idea, but sounds interesting

-John.

[Xerxes]

Ok, let me see if we're on the same page here. I roll up a character. Let's say each axis is 10 points here, for ease of math. I decide I like Fire better than water, so my initial balance is Fire 7 / Water 3. Then, i spend points to do my heroic stuff, but can refresh up to Fire 7 / Water 3 somehow. If I get wounded in a fight, my pool sizes go down, as a way of me getting weaker, right? But then it seems like the swinging effect gets lost a bit there. i.e. a spent point of Fire doesn't equal a gained point of water. My Fire 7 / Water 3 spends  a Fire point, but he can't gain a Water one because he's at his maximum Water.

I was thinking of having the players define initial values, to which their pools could be refreshed, via rest/healing/etc.

That's basically what I was driving at, although I think my ideas may have changed slightly since my last post.  Allowing the values to be refreshable is essential.  As far as the limiting factor goes, I think you misunderstood me.  You define the initial Fire/Water balance (for ease of example) as 7/3.  This means that your mage will then get 7 Physical Attribute Points to play with, and 3 Mental Attribute Points (or whatever names/categories you care to use), which will stay permanent regardless of magic fluctuations (but still be increased by XP and damaged by other in-game effects).  This indicates the character's inherent bias towards the physical rather than the mental.

The magic points have no limits once the character is created, beyond the reduction in points due to damage.  For example, our Fire/Water mage has an initial 7/3 split (total 10).  He takes damage which forces his maximum pool down to 8 points, resulting in 6/2.  He then uses water magic twice, swinging his magic to 4/4.  This is above his initial water magic quota, but that doesn't matter because it's not at the character creation stage, all that matters is keeping the number of points consistent with his injury level.  Such a thing would affect his attributes by (say) reducing his Physical Attribute Points down to 6 and buffing his Mental up to 4.  Making it something like a 2:1 ratio means that you won't immediately have a personality change after casting one spell.

Does that sound reasonable?

[opsneakie]

That sounds simply amazing.



Wow. That's the perfect way to get the attributes to work out the way I like, and still allow the magical swing to happen. Thanks, Xerxes, that's the option I didn't see there.

Then my thought is: when you refresh your pools (by sleeping, resting up, whatever) they refresh back to their default values of Fire 7 / Water 3 (in that example),so even if your character has become heavily Water-baised, he refreshed back to a more Fire-oriented build. Then I suppose there would have to be a mechanic to allow the player to change his character's permanent balance.

Thanks for the help, I feel like this system is coming together really well.

- John

[Xerxes]

Maybe, although that strikes me as a bit of a cop-out.  Not only does it fall prey to the usual D&D style "sleepy mage" in order to refresh magical ability, but it also cheapens the change a bit.

For example:

Merlin has been forced out of his scholarly isolation by a crisis in his local village, brought on by a roaming dragon.  In order to defeat the dragon, he had to employ Pyrus magic, in a titanic clash that not only brought him to near-death at the hands of the dragon, but tugged at his very soul, transforming him from a calm, reflective scholar into a raging, capricious magus as likely to kill an innocent as to invigorate it with his magic.

The next morning he wakes up refreshed and ready for another day in his library.

It's a simplified example, but I hope it makes its point; that resetting the magic cycles by resting makes the changes transient and easily fixed, without any serious thought needed to balance out the transforming magical energies raging within the mage's soul.  More magic needs to be involved in the change, or the magical reset needs to be something a bit harder to do.

[Xerxes]

And a thought about my own post, I say that the physical attributes stay put and are altered all at the same time.  The idea is that they're altered and completely mutable, but at a slower rate than the magic scales change.