Basic Mechanic building from the ground up

[shays]

I've been bouncing from idea to idea trying to nail down a mechanic that will work well for a super-heroic RPGs.  My challenge is to...Well develope a scale for challenges.  I figure if I have that defined then I can build off of it for attributes, skills, etc.

So my thought:
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Part 1
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Dice used: d20
Challenge Scale: 1-50
Scale and difficulty titles:
< 5 - Easy
< 10 - Mediocre
< 15 - Difficult
< 20 - Very Difficult
< 25 - Heroic
< 30 - Colossal
< 35 - Monsterous
< 40 - Unearthly
< 45 - Cosmic
< 50 - Infinite
(names subject to change)

So the idea statistically speaking:
(using d20)
Difficulty  /  Chance of success using base Zero (no bonuses)
Easy Task / 75%+
Mediocre / 50%%
Difficult / 25%
Very Difficult / 5%

To accomplish the following tasks the character must have a bonus to their base attribute
Difficulty  /  Bonus needed to have a 50% chance of success
Heroic / +15
Colossal +20
Monsterous +25
Unearthly +30
Cosmic +35
Infinite +40


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Part 2
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Where would bonuses come from?
Skills:  My thought on skills is to have a slightly modified system much like Starwars Saga Edition:
Trained --> +5
Specialized --> +10
Master --> +15

Attributes:
Bonuses would come from skills or super powers.
The one that is hanging me up the most is Strength.  My problem is if I have a Hulk like character with +40 strength i can set a challenge worthy of their strength easy enough (for example breaking down a stone wall).  But how do I scale that as far as damage goes.  At first level this may be a massive amount of damage, but at level 10,20,50... whatever it may not be so much.  I could say no leveling, but most gamers like to see there characters progress.  Anyway  I am going to bang my head against the wall for a while.

[Ken]

Hi-

Just let me start by saying that personally, I think super rpgs are pretty tough design-wise given the multitude of powers, origins, and concepts that get mashed together into one genre. There is a tremendous range of super powers that have been established by various comics, games, movies, etc. and making a system that includes these abilities in a balanced format can be daunting. I've been tooling around with super rpgs for about ten years now, and have been working on my current project Ten-Cent Heroes for about four. I love seeing other Forge members bring their super games to the forum because it gives me a chance to see the genre from a fresh perspective, and share my ideas on this type of gaming.

On to your stuff:

Challenge Scale

Pretty straight-forward. My only concern here would be that a character that could routinely accomplish upper scale actions would never be challenged by more ordinary situations; they wouldn't even have to roll for lower scale stuff. Is that your intent, or do you see having a randomizing factor to keep characters rolling for less challenging actions?

Fundamentally there is no problem with this, and being so good at something that you never fail at mundane tasks does make some sense, but this could be a slippery slope. I often think of the speedster, who is traditionally really gifted at the characteristics needed to punch someone; while normal thugs should probably always get slugged, does a system like this mean that the speedster NEVER misses? This could get frustrating when pitted against normal villains who should be menacing, but never really have a chance because of the gap in ability.

Bonuses

Traditionally things like characteristics, skills, and powers provide your roll bonuses. If you are looking for a realistic super game that sticks pretty close to the normal world, then this is probably enough. If you are looking to tap into more the of the comic book dynamic then you may need some more esoteric sources for your bonuses. Things like luck and drama play an important part why characters succeed in the comics, omitting them in the rules could produce a pretty flat game.

Levels

Personally, I don't think character levels work real well in the traditional super genre. I guess it depends on your take on the super world and what your levels represent (potency, skill, both?). What would your levels represent, and how much of a character could a player make at first level; what compromises would they make?

Thats all I got right now. A question for you is what kind of super game do you see these rules supporting? Do you have a background idea, or are you thinking more free-form/ any goes?

Take care,

Ken

[Adam Riemenschneider]

Cheers. Interesting timing. I was just spouting off about base mechanic challenges a couple of days ago, and some of the troubles I had. The *very* interesting this is that at one point in development, I considering using a d20 + base system against a nearly identical difficulty range.

My word of caution (well, of note, anyway) is that by using a single d20, you are making your mechanic behave a certain way - namely, you have a Linear randomizer. By this, you are just as likely to roll a 1 as you are a 5, 10, 15, or whatever. This is okay if you intend the mechanic to behave this way. Just keep in mind a few things:

A Skill +5 could never, ever do better than a Skill +25. Conversely, a Skill +25 could never, ever do as badly, even at his worst, as a Skill +5 on the best day of his life.

A difference of +10 Skill means the higher Skill will win 75% of the time. To *me*, a "Master" should outperform a "Trained" person a lot more than a mere 75% of the time. In Black belt vs. Green belt, I'd think the odds to be closer to 10-to-1.

Mid-post Edit: Looks like Ken went into what I was thinking, so I'll refrain on this part.

As for Super Powers, I think a fine place to calibrate your scores is to look at normal people first. I realize this seems counter-intuitive, but hear me out. If you want a finely tuned powers (or for that matter, Skills) system, look at the world through the eyes of normals. For example, look at the average amount a person can bench press. Then look at the world record for such a feat. Consider how much a frail, 90 year old woman could bench. Now, you have your range for just *normal* people. Consider what segment of the population lives near average, and what percent can accomplish anywhere near the world record.

Calibrate your Skills accordingly.

Consider that world record holder. Right now, it looks like the record is just over 1,000 lbs. How much variance do you think that record holder has in his bench press performance? Does he bench 1,000 on Monday, but can't beat 600 lbs on Tues? Or does he regularly bench 900 lbs without much of a sweat, and really has to work for anything over 950? Personally, I have no idea, but once you have your mechanic figured out, it has to follow your view of the world.

Once you have the Skills calibrated to a realistic (according to your world view) level, *then* start adding in levels of "super."

Do you want your super powers to rush off the scale? If so, consider using *multipliers.* Maybe Super Strength Level 1 *doubles* all strength acts, Level 2 *triples* them, and so on. Now, since you have a baseline, you know what a triple performance means. Or, you can go the other way, and have your Super levels behave in an incremental fashion (Super Strength 1 equals +5 in checks for the normal bench press chart).

If you want guys who can throw mountains, go for multipliers. If things pretty much max out as tossing buses, I'd look at incremental.

Personally, I'm not a fan of levels. I'd give them more points to build into their character, or, if you want to use levels, use each +1 level as a reason to add 3 levels of Super powers or +25 worth of Skills (or however you like).

I agree that players like to see their characters improve. My worry would be in how much your overall power level would jump for a character, between Level 1 and Level 2. If such a jump is pretty noticeable, what do characters look like at Level 10?

Keep it up!

-a-

[Callan S.]

Hi Shays,

One of the problems I've found with assigned difficulty numbers is that the GM will set high numbers for stuff he doesn't want and lower numbers for stuff he does. Ie, it doesn't really make sense for the GM to think 'Hey, so and so would be cool...I'm going to set a number that makes it unlikely it'll happen'. The GM comes for the cool like everyone else, so he's not really going to shoot himself in the foot. What do you think?

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi Shays,

I wanted to point you at a the text of Capes and Cowls, which saw a little love here at the Forge a few years ago.  However, the links are all dead, and the author doesn't frequent the site any longer.  The good news is that I know him, and I'll contact him off-site and try and get you hooked up with the game text.

Why?

Not to show you "how it should be done", but because I know that he struggled for a long time with getting games to scale, and to encapsulate the feel of comics.  Reading C&C will undoubtedly offer you some perspective.

In parallel to this, it would really help me help you if you could tell me a little about what gameplay will look, sound and feel like at the table.  What are players doing?  What about Characters?

Cheers,
Darcy

[shays]

but because I know that he struggled for a long time with getting games to scale, and to encapsulate the feel of comics.  Reading C&C will undoubtedly offer you some perspective.

That would be perfect.  I have read through the thread but the text would be great.

In parallel to this, it would really help me help you if you could tell me a little about what gameplay will look, sound and feel like at the table.  What are players doing?  What about Characters?

My purpose it to simulate an adventure from a comic book that I am currently working on: http://sw1tch3r.deviantart.com
Players will be in a society where they need to hide their super identity and yet faced with challenges which require their use.  I'll get a better explination for you soon.    

[shays]

...a character that could routinely accomplish upper scale actions would never be challenged by more ordinary situations; they wouldn't even have to roll for lower scale stuff. Is that your intent, or do you see having a randomizing factor to keep characters rolling for less challenging actions?

I looked at this from the stand point that a character would have a very narrow focus on characteristics that were super,  only some skills, only some abilities.  The flip side is that there are some things that are impossible without some sort of bonus.  Which would mean the players would have to find some way around the obsticle.

I often think of the speedster, who is traditionally really gifted at the characteristics needed to punch someone; while normal thugs should probably always get slugged, does a system like this mean that the speedster NEVER misses? This could get frustrating when pitted against normal villains who should be menacing, but never really have a chance because of the gap in ability.

If you have more examples of this flaw I would love to hear them.  This is definately something I need to consider.  If there are only a few I think I can design them out of play somewhat.  And yes the super speedster is definitly one of those powers that can break a whole system.  I mean theoretically a speedster could never get hit either if we relied on real pysics.

[Darcy Burgess]

I'd like to point out that Ken's comment regarding the speedster never missing are based on an assumption that he alluded to.  That assumption (and it's one that lots of games have taken) is that many speedsters have high agility and therefore hit a lot in combat, since agility is the "to hit" stat.

The first supers RPG that I played that turned this on its head was Godlike.  In godlike your super-speed is completely detatched from your conventional stats (strength, agility, etc.).

The problem (if there ever was one) instantly vapourizes.

In fact, I've leveraged this divide to great effect.  A favourite Godlike character had flight, but could only fly at full tilt.  It made for some neat crashes.

D

[hermes]

Greetings!  Oh my...it has been a while since last I dropped in here.  I believe my account has cobwebs in it. 

Well, I would be "author" to whom Darcy was alluding.  At his request, I dug out my most recent incarnation of Capes & Cowls and converted it over to PDF so that folks here can peruse it in all it's not-so-glorious glory.  It's one of those things I keep coming back to every so often thinking that it needs some love, but I never think of it when I actually have the time to do something about it.  It needs art, too--I really want to fix that aspect, but it's so time consuming to do it properly.  One of these days...

Anyway, feel free to read it at your leisure.  Questions, comments, and suggestions are still welcome.  I hope it offers some insight, or at least a different perspective, into ways of approaching a supers game.  Enjoy!

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rglennhall/capesandcowls1.5.pdf

Glenn Hall

[shays]

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rglennhall/capesandcowls1.5.pdf

Hey, thanks for the reply. 

hmmm... Link isn't working for me

[shays]

The first supers RPG that I played that turned this on its head was Godlike.  In godlike your super-speed is completely detatched from your conventional stats (strength, agility, etc.).

The problem (if there ever was one) instantly vapourizes.

I had a similar idea in mind, also inspired from Godlike .

[shays]

Hi Shays,

One of the problems I've found with assigned difficulty numbers is that the GM will set high numbers for stuff he doesn't want and lower numbers for stuff he does. Ie, it doesn't really make sense for the GM to think 'Hey, so and so would be cool...I'm going to set a number that makes it unlikely it'll happen'. The GM comes for the cool like everyone else, so he's not really going to shoot himself in the foot. What do you think?

Interesting...
My thought was to have a basic building block for adventure creation, something abstract that allows to quickly put together a campaign but also grounded in reality.  In other words the system is objective in what is considered easy, difficult, and super hard despite the abilities of individual players.  For example, a chasm may have a difficulty rating of: Very Difficult (15) (represents 25 feet chasm) but a character with a jump characteristic of say +10 would find the jump fairly easy while a character with a jump characteristic of +15 or more would not even need to roll the dice.

[shays]

A question for you is what kind of super game do you see these rules supporting? Do you have a background idea, or are you thinking more free-form/ any goes?

Good question.  The game is definitly being designed for a specific setting based on my comic book http://sw1tch3r.deviantart.com

[hermes]

hmmm... Link isn't working for me

I see...it seems to work fine for me.  As an alternative, you could try the following web page with a link to the file itself.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rglennhall

Glenn

[shays]

hmmm... Link isn't working for me

I see...it seems to work fine for me.  As an alternative, you could try the following web page with a link to the file itself.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/rglennhall

Awesome, that one worked.