Indie Games Relationship Map Project

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey Cats,

I posted companion threads about this on Story Games and Knife Fight:
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5050
http://www.i-would-knife-fight-a-man.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2862

I'm attempting to make a relationship map of game design influences, which I think it would also be really helpful at getting the lay of the land as far as design goes.

For each game you have in a published or finished form (your call), list the games (in no particular order) which you feel have had significant influence on it. For most folks, these would be the games you credit somewhere in the text. And try not to have more than 5 credits per game, though do it if you have to.

With the results, I'm going to try to create a Network Diagram that shows how each game is related to every other game.

Crediting unfinished or unpublished works is fine, but don't just credit "this thing Ben Lehman said one time." I can't really graph that.

Thanks!

[guildofblades]

Hm. Interesting topic.

Well, we have a goodly number of games in print, so I'll try where I am able to draw comparisons. Though this is not strictly limited to RPGs.

Empires of History board games.
The first game in tis series, the War to End All Wars began life marketed as an Axis & Allies variant, so A&A had its influence to be sure. So did World in Flames, which we drew a handful of neat concepts from. Then, of course, there were a series of other games which influenced us by way of us NOT wanting to be anything like them. After that first game release though, the rest of the games in the series have only drawn inspiration from previous games in the same series and not outside sources.

Dark Realms Role Playing Universe
The original dark realms system was designed to be somewhat like D&D with classes, levels, etc. You know, old school stuff. lol. But it was very specifically designed to be the complete opposite from D&D when it came to magic and skills.

Overlords: Fantasy Battlescape Wargame
As a Titan variant, this one obviously drew inspiration from Titan.

Worlds of Heroes & Tyrants Fantasy Quest Game
This was pegged as a Talisman variant, so...

Button Wars: Tactical Spaceship Combat Game.
Well, game play and rules wise, this puppy was unique. But "packaging" wise, it drew its inspiration from a combination of Disk Wars and Button Men.

Really, though, these days I don't worry about what other people are doing. I try not to emulate others or copy from them. When designing a game, I merely consider what the game is suppose to be like, then set about making the cleanest, easiest to utilize rules to capture that feel. Less rules and less complicated is generally better.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

[M. J. Young]

I happened to arrive early in this thread; I also happen to pretty much pre-date most of what I think you want--but I'll give some input anyway.  Multiverser is the game I have in print; others are still in development or waiting for a decent time to release them.

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons was the single largest influence on my thinking. I had spent literally years analyzing its concepts in detail.  Mechanically we went an entirely different direction on nearly every point, but there are a lot of structural similarities between the games.  The alignment system influenced my own thinking on supernatural realms, and the comprehensive effort to cover everything was also significant.  In some places, I made direct reference back to the OAD&D books to make certain that anything they covered, we covered in some way.

I suspect that Star Frontiers was also significantly influential in my thinking. Its rare supplement, Zebulon's Guide to the Galaxy, contained a single-roll hit and damage system; there's was rather complex, requiring reference to the charts in the book to make it work, and I found a way to simplify it and in the process enhance the value of skill, particularly in combat.  This was also the first skill-based game I'd played, and to some degree influenced my thinking on how to make skill-based success systems.

I'm sure there were other games I'd played or never played that had an influence on me, and of course I was partnered with E. R. Jones, whose familiarity with the RPG world at that time (mid eighties through mid nineties) was far more comprehensive than mine.  I suspect that some of the mechanics were derivative, but I never knew the source.

I also often wonder whether what we did had much influence on what anyone else did, coming out in 1997 as we did.

--M. J. Young

[Jonathan Walton]

MJ, isolated little pockets of games will also be really interesting to graph, I think.  Like, it'll show sections of indie games that aren't as prominent in certain circles because they aren't as tied into whatever the central hubs of the post-2000 indie games scene are (I'm guessing Sorcerer, Dust Devils, MLWM, Dogs, Polaris, but we'll see).  One of my goals for this project is show that the indie games community, design wise and diversity-wise, may or may not conform to people's expectations.  So, yes, your input is most welcome.

[GreatWolf]

MJ, isolated little pockets of games will also be really interesting to graph, I think.  Like, it'll show sections of indie games that aren't as prominent in certain circles because they aren't as tied into whatever the central hubs of the post-2000 indie games scene are (I'm guessing Sorcerer, Dust Devils, MLWM, Dogs, Polaris, but we'll see).  One of my goals for this project is show that the indie games community, design wise and diversity-wise, may or may not conform to people's expectations.  So, yes, your input is most welcome.

That should be interesting!

Honestly, my list for Legends of Alyria was composed almost exclusively of games that predate the Forge indie movement.  (Sorcerer is the one exception.)

[Eero Tuovinen]

This is a most interesting project, Jonathan! Be sure to keep us apprised of your progress, and tell me if you need help; this is something I've been thinking of doing myself just for curiousity, so I don't want you to forget this. My approach would have probably been more scholarly, reading through the credits of a lots of books, but of course you'll get better results by asking directly.

Then, onwards:

Zombies at the Door!, my most serious published game to date:
The Mountain Witch was a direct mechanical inspiration, as well as a direct design challenge that inspired the game.
Primetime Adventures is a secondary example of the player-paced drama arc phenomenon that inspired the game. Both of these were explicitly on my mind when I designed.
I would dearly love to list Sorcerer, My Life with Master and Dust Devils, too, but they're really more like inspirations for my design in general, not for this particular project in any concrete manner I would have thought of when designing. They could well be listed for anything I'll ever do.

Minor projects that probably aren't worth mapping (unless you want to have small bud-nodes to decorate the more influential games), but that have either been published (in minor publications) or are almost finished (but not quite):
Merchants of Love - an early design from -04, based on MLwM.
The Christmas Game - long in development, inspired by MLwM.
Eleanor's Dream - my current primary project, influenced by Polaris, MLwM and Multiverser.

[Jonathan Walton]

Here's a map of all the data I gathered through posting.  I'm eventually going to comb through my collection too.

[Eero Tuovinen]

It'd be great if you could color the nodes to distinguish between games you asked about and games that were just referenced in the answers. Perhaps the map would also be more informative if you put the former in the middle and the latter on the edges, so as to separate "outside influences" from the games that were your direct material. I wouldn't also mind if the nodes were larger for the games with more referrals, to increase visual information. Of course, all that all but requires doing the graph by hand.

Other than the nitpicking, good job! If you put up the original data as well when you finish your research, others can take a stab at doing graphs and other graphics from it, too.

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi,

Interesting project. I spent a good fifteen minutes clicking on nodes, browsing through relationships, and found it enjoyable. But what is this map good for?

Thanx,

Peter

[Jonathan Walton]

Charles also made this map, ranking the most influential games and tagging them with the games they influenced. Solves some issues I was worrying about.

Some things I wish I could include:
- more data, some of which is coming
- having the hubs only get larger due to ties TO them, instead of also including ties FROM them (like Charles' map)
- color coding hubs and connections
- dates of publication

[David Artman]

Here's a map of all the data I gathered through posting.

Wow... GLASS is literally out in left field. I can't believe no one has mentioned HERO at least--maybe Infinite Armies does?--to bring me a tenuous connection.

By the way, can you spread out the links a bit more, maybe let them "relax" or what-not? Just to better view the general overview, without having to click nodes?

Interesting project. I spent a good fifteen minutes clicking on nodes, browsing through relationships, and found it enjoyable. But what is this map good for?

Hehe. Your first two sentences answer your closing question.

Put another way (to use the words of tthe Sage): Unask the question.


Seriously, though... I could see it being useful as a guide for a designer just starting out: either to help focus their research on games that are similar to what they are thinking of doing; OR to find unexploited "game space" near the fringes (heh... much like I have, it would seem).
David
---

this map, ranking the most influential games and tagging them with the games they influenced.

Cool... uh, even though I can't tell what that map's supposed to really show.

- color coding hubs and connections
- dates of publication

It might be neat if those were coupled: rainbow order, from oldest to newest games, for the hubs (don't know what would color the connections: maybe black, if a "from" and white if a "to" on a gray background?).
DCA

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Jonathan,

My biggest influences have been:

For Donjon:
Basic D&D
Sorcerer
The Pool

For The Shadow of Yesterday:
D&D 3rd Edition
Sorcerer
The Riddle of Steel
Orkworld
Hero Wars
(I know I left Fudge off, but it wasn't a major influence, really.)

For The Princes' Kingdom:
Dogs in the Vineyard
The Way

For Inuma:
Everway
Story Engine
Primetime Adventures

[Ron Edwards]

Sorcerer
Maelstrom / Story Engine
Cyberpunk
Zero
Over the Edge
The Fantasy Trip

Elfs
Dungeons & Dragons
Paranoia

Trollbabe
Everway
Prince Valiant
Dust Devils
The Dying Earth
Hero Wars

It Was a Mutual Decision
Bacchanal
Breaking the Ice

[Jonathan Walton]

Added new data from Ron, Clinton, Matt Wilson, Joshua Newman, Fred, and Jeph.

New maps:
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6t8EpSXhpK2-  (hit the REDRAW button!)
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SGo7oKsOtha6z9-oZCrpK2-

Would really like data from:

- Jared (InSpectres, octaNe, Lacuna, Le Mon Mouri)
- Vincent (Otherkind, In a Wicked Age, Hungry Desperate & Alone)
- Luke (Burning Wheel, Burning Empires)
- Tim (Mountain Witch, Mexican Standoff)
- Keith (Conspiracy of Shadows, untitled)
- Paul (Bacchanal, WF&D)
- John Tynes (Risus, Puppetland)
- Emily (Breaking the Ice)
- Chad (Dead Inside)
- Brennan (Mortal Coil)
- Nathan Paoletta (Carry)
- Ron (Spione)
- James Wallis (Munchausen)
- Rebecca Borgstrom (Nobilis)
- Daniel Bayn (Wushu)
- Mark Smylie (Artesia)

This would help better position games that are already on the graph.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Spione
Primetime Adventures
Universalis
Accordion (solitaire card game)
Legends of Allyria

Also, le mon mouri was written by Sean Demory. Jared merely hosted it on his site.

A tricky part of the project is that a games in design can have a big impact, even if they are never finished. My drafts for Fantasy for Real, Mongrel, and Black Fire were pretty influential; I`m not sure whether unpublished/unfinished work is eligible though.

Best, Ron