Rules for Cookie Fu posted here. Feedback strongly desired!

[bluekabuto]

Hello Everyone -

Bryan Kowalski from Blue Kabuto here. After receiving a somewhat lukewarm playtesting response (Beuler? Beuler?) for our new game Cookie Fu, I thought I'd post the basic rules on the forge to see if I might solicate a response from anyone... someone... God - I feel like I am at an Aztec Jade concert here :( Take a look at this and see if any of it makes sense. I'd appreciate feedback from at least "one" person! :(

Here's a qick refresher:

Let me give you a breakdown of what cookie fu is (and isn't). Cookie Fu is
the first in our series of Fight Dice mini-games. Each game comes with 3
battle dice with different icons on them used to illustrate a warrior's
fighting moves. The game will also include a "initiative" dice which is
very similar to rock, paper, scissors. The game will also come with a
fortune cookie (I need to check out the fda standards first).

Being a mini- game is just that, normal play time runs about 15-20 min
topps. It's campy, quirky and meant to be fun. Is it a time killer? I
suppose - but aren't all games? Cookie Fu will be released in your
standard zip lock pack so popular with indie game designers (aka Cheapass
games, etc). Each fight dice pack will be compatible with others in the
series, so if you wanted to battle against the other types of warriors,
you can. The game will also be somewhat expandable by buying additional
fight packs to make a more powerful fighter. Basically, we're providing a
rough copy of the rules (which fit on about the size of 2 magic cards) and
icons for the dice. We ask that you grab a friend and play it a bit. Let
us know how it works (or if it doesn't) and let us know how it can be
improved. Rule suggestions, change the Fu move names, etc. We have a great
artist doing the look and feel to this game - his name is Niko Geyer and
you can check out his work at www.nikogeyer.com

Remember, this is not rocket science here. It's not meant to be an rpg or
have a huge amount of complexity, just a quick, fun, and neat little game.
Any feedback you have would be appreciated. Additionally, the game will be
written (tweaked) to "sound" like a fortune cookie, as if someone with
bad "engrish" is talking - to further add to the fortune cookie concept.


And now, the basic rules....


Cookie Fu
Rules of Play:

Each player gets three fu dice. Each dice has the same icons on them: Strike, Kick, Grab, Throw, Block, and Chi - these are called fight icons. Each player also gets a fortune die – this die is like rock, paper, scissors, but has fortune cookies on it. Each player starts with 10 hit points. If ever your hit point reduced to 0, you are defeated.  Not so lucky!

Order of play:

1) Each player rolls all his or her dice each turn.
2) Compare fortune dice. Winner goes first.
3) Compare attack/defend results & use Chi powers/moves.
3) For each unblocked hit, opponent takes 1 HP of damage.
4) Repeat until defeated. Winner eats opponent's cookie.


Fortune Dice:

A Whole Cookie is better than a Crushed Cookie.
The Fortune always beats a Whole Cookie.
A Crushed Cookie will always ruin a Fortune.


Fu Dice:

Strike & Kick - a hit on your opponent.

Grab – Can be used for attack & defending. To defend: blocks strike, kick, & grab/throw combo. To attack: used w/throws in combo. Example - grab/grab/throw combo.

Throw - Can be used only with grabs. No grabs? No good. Each throw w/grab = a hit. Example - grab/throw/throw = 2 HP damage.

Block – Blocks strike, kick and grab/throw combos.

Chi - Gives one Chi point to use for cookie fu powers/healing/etc.

Grab/Throw combos - A grab/throw combo can only be blocked with a grab/block combo, the stronger the grab, the harder it is to block. I.e. grab/grab/throw can only be blocked by a grab/grab/block, but a grab/throw/throw can still be blocked by a grab/block.



Chi Powers:

Chi points cannot be saved and must be spent right away. Chi" points may be used in any of the following ways:

Healing Chi – Heal yourself for one HP per Chi point spent.
Chi Blast – Attack opponent with Chi Blast, damage = 1 HP per Chi point spent.
Chi Block – Blocks a Chi Blast. One point per point spent.
Cookie Fu Moves – Pick one from each type (basic/expert/master) before battle.

Your Cookie Fu powers work best when shouted and with a dramatic stance.

Basic Cookie Fu Moves:
Light Crispy Strike = 1 strike, countered only by a block.
Baked Cookie Evasion = 1 block. Re-roll 1 chi dice, keep blocks.
350 Degree Kick = 1 kick result + if not countered, 1 more kick.
Crunchy Treat Grasp = 2 grabs for a grab/throw combo only.
Ancient Golden Throw = 1 grab/throw. Add any grabs/throws.

Expert Cookie Fu Moves:
Twice Folded Slam = 2 strikes, + if not countered, 1 more strike.
Dodge of Good Fortune = 2 blocks + 1 block if opponent had one.
Sweet Flaky Kick = 1 kick, Re-roll 2 chi dice, count kicks.
Lucky Inside Grip = 1 grab + opponent is - 1 dice next turn.
Tasty Snack Toss = 1 grab + Re-roll 2 chi dice, strikes/kicks = throws.

Master Cookie Fu Moves:
Sugary Nerve Strike = 3 strikes + opponent is - 2 dice next turn.
Snap-Crack Block = 3 blocks, Re-roll 3 Chi dice, count blocks.
Paper Destiny's Sweep = 2 kicks + opponent may only defend next turn.
Brittle Bowed Grab = 3 grabs this turn, 2 next turn, then 1 next.
Hurl of Crumbled Fate = 1 grab/grab/throw/throw/throw combo.




We did get a little feedback from James C. Here's what we discussed:

>A grab negates a kick?  I understood that only a block negated a kick,
>and a  Grab+Block negated a Grab+Throw

The idea was a grab can be used both offensively and defensively. If used
offensively, you'd need at least a grab/throw combo to make it work
effectively. On the other hand, on the defensive - a grab can "block" or
negate strikes and kicks. I.e grabbing someone's kick/strike as they throw
it at you.

He continues:

>Realistic?  Sure.  But it throws off your balance.  Look at your special
>moves.  Who would take blocks when you can have just as many grabs, which
>are FAR more versatile than blocks?

The grab was designed as to be both offensive and defensive, used
defensively - it negates a strike or a kick, and offensively - you need a
grab throw combo to make it do something. To block a grab/throw you need a
grab/block combo. the stronger the grab the stronger it is to block. Hence
a grab/grab/throw needs a grab/grab/block to negate it, but a
grab/throw/throw/throw still would only need a grab/block to negate.

If this seems out of balance, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

And more:

>Also, what
>does  "winner goes first" mean if you're comparing dice rolls with each
>throw?  I  don't see that anyone is "going first", unless the winner is
>combining any  grabs first, and the "loser" has the advantage of
>deciding second how s/he  will combine dice.


The winner gets to throw the first attack if they want. Players throw
attacks at each other, and can decide how many "dice" in each attack (1 or
more) they want to throw. Players alternate attacks against one another -
and you can certainly "pass" is you have no attacks.

Simple play example.

Here we go - Player A got a Whole Cookie whereas Player B got a Crushed
Cookie. Player A will go first.

Player A - Throws a Kick.
Player B - Uses a Grab (negates it).
PLayer A - Uses a 2 Dice Chi Blast (thus finishing his dice).
Player B - Only got 1 Chi, He uses a Chi Block (negates only 1 pt of it).
PLayer B - Throws a Strike (and finishes using his dice).
PLayer A - Has used his dice and must "take it", suffering 1 pt of damage.

Hope this clarifies a few things for everyone. Please let me know of your
results/findings if you can -

[Laurel]

When I was a little girl, my parents and I played lots of games, usually something every evening (backgammon, UNO, monopoly, Miles Bourne, etc.)

One of my favorites besides backgammon was called Pig Mania.  Rather than dice, you has 2 or 3 little pigs that got rolled as dice and you were scored according to what position they landed in.  One of the positions did sort of look like two pigs humping.  I recall it was worth a lot of points :)
Silly game, entertaining like all heck.

The point to this is that I think Cookie Fu could use some kind of external mechanic (gimmick) beyond just comparing dice faces although the dice I've seen on the site are very colorful and appealing.  What about offering Chi to people who are able to quote a chinese proverb while rolling the dice- or making it mandatory to quote a proverb while rolling?

If you can't include fortune cookies, you can include a recipe for homemade fortune cookies, easily borrowed from the web.

[Bailywolf]

This could be a great core to a kung-fu chop socky style RPG (complete with swishing bellbotom pants and bad dubing)...throw in some traits to derive the dice stuff from... you might have a really kickass little beast...play it as a tabletop timewaster, or play it as an RPG.  Seriously, you might think about it.

[bluekabuto]

The point to this is that I think Cookie Fu could use some kind of external mechanic (gimmick) beyond just comparing dice faces although the dice I've seen on the site are very colorful and appealing.  What about offering Chi to people who are able to quote a chinese proverb while rolling the dice- or making it mandatory to quote a proverb while rolling?

If you can't include fortune cookies, you can include a recipe for homemade fortune cookies, easily borrowed from the web.

Interestingly funny, but not many people are educated on chinese proverbs. This might be good for more seasoned players, but I think newbies and the younger generation would be at a loss. If you check the rules, there is a mention that "Cookie Fu powers work best when shouted and with a dramatic stance", perhaps I should make this "ONLY work when..." That way players would have to stand up and mimick the move they want to do along with the appropriate "Hiiiiyyyyaaaa!!!" or "CHI BLAST!!!" or "SWEET FLAKY STRIKE!!!!!", etc, etc...

As for the fortune cookies, I believe I can include them as long as they are prepackaged. I am thinking of red ones (to match the dice) and doing them as custom fortunes in the cookies (they're pretty cheap)

Pig mania kicked ass btw!

This could be a great core to a kung-fu chop socky style RPG (complete with swishing bellbotom pants and bad dubing)...throw in some traits to derive the dice stuff from... you might have a really kickass little beast...play it as a tabletop timewaster, or play it as an RPG.  Seriously, you might think about it.

Actually, you must be a mind reader! I've already considered the possibilities on using this core mechanic for an rpg. If you check out our site and look under Ramen Raiders in the games page - that will be the next system to use this dice mechanic. For that game, we're adding "elements" to the dice (air, earth, fire, water, void) so there will be some real cool combos there. Other settings have been considered as well.

"kung-fu chop socky"? Can you give me some reference movies? Are you refering to the style in the 70's, like "undercover brother" or Shaft?

Good stuff guys! Keep it coming!!

[Bailywolf]

I was thinking about 70's style kung fu movies (of which some of the "best" corssover with blacksploitation films...Soul Brothers of Kung Fu and such).  The Shaw Brothers made some of the greatest (Seven Golden Vampires is a combo dracula/kung fu movie !).  

Think floppy bushy hair.  Think Bruce Lee and Sony Chiba.  Ease up on the funny pastey kung fu moves, and let players name their own combos.  

Check some of these links out:

http://www.webspawner.com/users/shawbrothers/

http://www.drunkenfist.com/movies/HongKong/1978.shtm

http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/kroyea/chiba.htm


and don't forget the funky 70's samuri movies


http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/chambara/chambara.htm

(Lone wolf and Cub, Zatoichi, and Lazy Eyes of Death are among the best)

http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/wire-fu.asp

(a great definition of chopsocky)

[Bailywolf]

and just read this and try and tell me your game isn't screaming to do this:

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/goldvamps/

[bluekabuto]

and just read this and try and tell me your game isn't screaming to do this:

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/goldvamps/

NICE! This may be a possibility after Cookie Fu. Let's focus on CF and once that's done, I 'll take a look at these.

[Bailywolf]

I checked out your site- good design, easy access.  

I really like the system as written- it looks like a trip to play... a goofy little Flash animated game with stick figures kicking each other's ass basedon these mechanics would be fun as hell to.  If you know anyone with good Flash design skills, it might make a cool addition to your site.

Games like Hong Kong Action Thater and Feng Shui both cover chopsocky, but tend to the 'higher quality' kung fu movies... hell with that.  I think you have a great niche there to tap with an RPG expansion for Cookie Fu- the pure kung fu movie.  A play structure which reflects the source material (with the possibilities for a sequle of course) and a tactile die system which makes for a double layer of fun- fun in the gamest rollembones way, and fun in the creative descriptive kung fun madness.  

Some design concerns (when it becomes relevent down the road)

> Diferentiating between characters- some guys are going to be better than others at this or that... either more or less dice for certain characters, or "tweaks" which let some guys alter the rolled result (like a fighter with Striking Mantis Style who can convert any rolled kick to a grab manuever as a special ability etc).

> Mob rules- how to easily fight a whole bunch of nameless mooks without bogging down the kickass flow of combat.

> Stunts

> Motivation- how motivated a kung fu fighter is often determines how well he fights... perhaps when defeated, humiliated, or abused characters accumulate Pay Back Points (or some such) which can work like Chi or in some other way tweak the system.



I look forward to seeing more.

[bluekabuto]

>I checked out your site- good design, easy access.  

Hey thanks. We're trying.

>I really like the system as written- it looks like a trip to play... a goofy >little Flash animated game with stick figures kicking each other's ass >basedon these mechanics would be fun as hell to.  If you know anyone >with good Flash design skills, it might make a cool addition to your site.

LOL - I know some flash, but not enough to do an interactive game sort of thing. :( You're right, that would be a riot!

>Games like Hong Kong Action Thater and Feng Shui both cover >chopsocky, but tend to the 'higher quality' kung fu movies... hell with >that.  I think you have a great niche there to tap with an RPG expansion >for Cookie Fu- the pure kung fu movie.  A play structure which reflects >the source material (with the possibilities for a sequle of course) and a >tactile die system which makes for a double layer of fun- fun in the >gamest rollembones way, and fun in the creative descriptive kung fun >madness.  

Oh sure. Don't think we've not thought of this. It's all a matter of making this work.

>Some design concerns (when it becomes relevent down the road)

> Diferentiating between characters- some guys are going to be better >than others at this or that... either more or less dice for certain >characters, or "tweaks" which let some guys alter the rolled result (like >a fighter with Striking Mantis Style who can convert any rolled kick to a >grab manuever as a special ability etc).

Yup, yup

> Mob rules- how to easily fight a whole bunch of nameless mooks >without bogging down the kickass flow of combat.

Yeah, that's a major issue we are facing - how to make it "multi-player" instead of just duel. Imagine 3 or 4 people playing Cookie Fu around the table. That would be Kung Fu madness indeed.

> Stunts

> Motivation- how motivated a kung fu fighter is often determines how well he fights... perhaps when defeated, humiliated, or abused characters accumulate Pay Back Points (or some such) which can work like Chi or in some other way tweak the system.

Hmm.. possibly. I like it so far.

[Bailywolf]

When will you be likely to have the basic cookie-fu game in the bag and away?  I rarely like 'normal' games...but the combo of a fun dice game mixed with role playing is realy exciting... I for one would certainly pay for both the dice game and a seperate rpg expansion.  

To keep things tidy, I would say adding more dice might get hairy... but it could make for some real differentiation in characters...masters and major badies and such...also reducing dice for serious puddings might be in order.  

You can treat groups of mooks as a single entity- rolling one set of dice for them, with Hit Points (right?) based on how many there are in the group... for a really tough Mob, each member would contribute several hit points...for a weak mob, each member might only contribute one (or less).  So you can have the Demon Three (three brothers who are dangerous assassins) or an Angry Peasant Mob (made up of 50 pathetic farmers)... when fighting as a group, they act as a single character.

Hmmm.... for a serious Rumble with more than a one-two-one face off... well, perhaps each character needs some kind of Mastery level... representing the number of seperate individuals you can fight at the same time... you can use your dice once per individual instead of having to split your dice up to attack (or defend against) more than one guy... hmmm... I don't know...

I'm just riffing here, not trying to tell you your buisness- please feel free to disreguard any of the ramblings which I spew...I tend to be a stream-of-consciousness poster on ideas I dig...

Here are a couple of Styles I came up with (and a possible Technique to tweak the dice):

Devious Fox Style (swap one of your dice for the dice of your oponent after they are rolled)

Striking Serpent (on a successful Punch, do no damage, but oponent rolls only two fu die next round)

Ascendant Crane (a successful Grab earns you 1 Chi)

Showlin Shadow Foot (your Kick attack acts as a simultaneous Block to an oponent's kicks)  



Hmmmm... Attribute system...

Chi: Number of Chi points you can 'store'
Mastery: number of Fu dice you roll
Skills:  everything else- select a skill package covering a career:  Secret Agent, Hair Dresser, Racecar Driver, Sushi Chef, Maverik Cop, Wandering outlaw... then preface it with "Kung Fu".  So you are a "Kung Fu Maveric Cop" or a "Kung Fu Sushi Chef" or a "Kung Fu Supermodel" or whatever.  You use your Skills for all non-kung-fu stuff, including stunts and chases, so it isn't entirely usleess.

Start Chi a 0, Mastery at 2 and Skills at 2.  Take 3 points and drop them where you want.  Select a Style, pick a Chi Power (one for each point of Chi you possess- a 1st level for the 1st point, a 2nd level for the second point, a 3rd level for the 3rd point).  Choose your Skills.  Give the bloke a name, then go forth and kickass.  

ramble ramble ramble

Like so:

Victor Chow
Mojo:  Deadly hired assassin with a poet's heart
Chi: 1
Mastery: 3 (Deadly Diamond Finger- punch does 2 damage)
Skills: 3 (Kung Fu Assassin)
Chi Powers:
Stabbing Hand Technique (light crispy strike)





;)

[RobMuadib]

Hello Everyone -

Let me give you a breakdown of what cookie fu is (and isn't). Cookie Fu is
the first in our series of Fight Dice mini-games. Each game comes with 3
battle dice with different icons on them used to illustrate a warrior's
fighting moves. The game will also include a "initiative" dice which is
very similar to rock, paper, scissors. The game will also come with a
fortune cookie (I need to check out the fda standards first).

Kabuto

First, have to say I like the overall trick of the game, I think it would be a very fun pick-up kind of game along the lines of SJG's Munchkin or something.

However, My only point would be to generalize it more. You could still call it Cookie Fu, or whatever. Make the Fortune Cookie or other Food Item optional. That way people can use Skittles or pretzels, or whatever they have on hand. Or they can take a swig of beer along with each point of damage, and the winning guy gets to eat the other guys Pretzel or something.

Another thing you might consider in the special moves/kI moves, is to allow the use of funky Chinese place Menu Items. You know, Purple Combo #5, like this one infamous chinese place near my old college had.

Other than that I think it is a pretty clever game.

I'm sure me and my friends would play it, and it can still be enjoyed while drinking beers :)

Rob

(Who got fairly drunk while playing multi-player magic the other night, an interesting experience.)

[bluekabuto]

Kabuto

First, have to say I like the overall trick of the game, I think it would be a very fun pick-up kind of game along the lines of SJG's Munchkin or something.

However, My only point would be to generalize it more. You could still call it Cookie Fu, or whatever. Make the Fortune Cookie or other Food Item optional. That way people can use Skittles or pretzels, or whatever they have on hand. Or they can take a swig of beer along with each point of damage, and the winning guy gets to eat the other guys Pretzel or something.

Another thing you might consider in the special moves/kI moves, is to allow the use of funky Chinese place Menu Items. You know, Purple Combo #5, like this one infamous chinese place near my old college had.

Other than that I think it is a pretty clever game.

I'm sure me and my friends would play it, and it can still be enjoyed while drinking beers :)

Rob

(Who got fairly drunk while playing multi-player magic the other night, an interesting experience.)

Whoo Hoo! More people actually interested in Cookie Fu? ^_^

Ok, getting to your points - the eating the fortune cookie thing is obviously a "flavor" thing. We're not going to expect people to run out and buy fortune cookies every time they play CF (would be nice, but...) Sure, other food items could be substituted, I don't see why not. This would be a riot to play in a Chinese resturant while you wait for your order. (oh, wait that's another game :) ) Part of the quirkyness does come from the fortune cookie theme, Beer Fu might be a little too much over the top. "Whomever doesn't pass out is the winner!" LOL

I like the idea of the different Chinese food menu items, but I wanted to keep it really fortune cookie related for the first release. Hey, no reason why I can't post these on the website as goodies or downloads or even have them as an "expansion" gasp!

Any more you can think of?

[Valamir]

(Who got fairly drunk while playing multi-player magic the other night, an interesting experience.)

Magic the Blathering is a great drinking game.  Gives all new meaning to the word "Tap" :-)

[bluekabuto]

Bailywolf Sir: You kick ass!

Just wait till' we start playtesting Ramen Raiders! I think I definately want you on the playtest team for that!

Let's get to those questions/items:

>When will you be likely to have the basic cookie-fu game in the bag and >away?

We're wating on the cover art from the artist yet. Should be real soon, maybe by the end of the week (fingers crossed) His site's at www.nikogeyer.com check im' out. I am shootin' for Gen Con, but we'll see.

>To keep things tidy, I would say adding more dice might get hairy... but >it could make for some real differentiation in characters...masters and >major badies and such...also reducing dice for serious puddings might >be in order.

Well, we were thinking (on the topic of expansion) on how to make the dice game somewhat scalable - If you buy additional packs, you'll get more dice. Say two packs gives you 6 Fu dice - Then your fighter could start with 15 (or20) hp and be able to choose 2 of each Cookie Fu moves(instead of one), thus making him a more powerful fighter. Obviously you would want to keep the battles balanced - i.e. fighting another opponent with 6 dice.

I like the mook idea. I could use a part of the Ramen Raiders mechanic here. Say you're fight a group of mooks (4) each mook would only have 1 dice, but function as a single unit. For "X" amount of damage done to the mook pack - you would remove one of the dice. The more dmage done, the more dice removed.

As for the multiplayer thing. If the fights are balanced, could one 6 dice Fu Fighter (oooh, I like that. Fu Fighters!) battle against two 3 dice fighters? Could be, I need to kick this one around and playtest it a bit.

>I'm just riffing here, not trying to tell you your buisness- please feel free >to disreguard any of the ramblings which I spew...I tend to be a stream->of-consciousness poster on ideas I dig...

Don't worry, I am a bass player - so I don't mind "riffage" Please, keep coming with the ideas. They are helpful.

As for the other ideas on a rpg version - they very cool I must say. I knew from the begining that this concept and dice mechanic would be very cool. I hope it flies though.

Yes, an rpg would be tre cool for Cookie Fu - Ramen Raiders uses a similar mechanic wich has card/board/quest elements as well - except you play a Ramen Raider (Tetsu Jin, yeah!) on the quest for the ultimate bowl of Ramen.

As for you Fu ideas:

>Here are a couple of Styles I came up with (and a possible Technique to >tweak the dice):

>Devious Fox Style (swap one of your dice for the dice of your oponent >after they are rolled)

Actually, this was one of the effects in the first draft version.

>Striking Serpent (on a successful Punch, do no damage, but oponent >rolls only two fu die next round)

as was this.

>Ascendant Crane (a successful Grab earns you 1 Chi)

cool.

>Showlin Shadow Foot (your Kick attack acts as a simultaneous Block to >an oponent's kicks)

Nice. I can see tons of source material already!!

Storing or "banking " chi is a mechanic already present in Ramen Raiders. As for the skills, what would determine success?  I am thinking each skill could have a particular icon attached to it. Say you wanted to do a running leap - maybe you would need 3 "kicks" to suceed. Or breaking down a door needs 2 "Strikes", etc, etc.  As you get up in Mastery (more dice) you'll get more dice to roll and the difficulties become harder and so on. Oh, I can see the possiblities here. - It's really close to what we're doing in Ramen Raiders, I could always adopt it.

It could be set in different genres as well:

kung-fu chop socky
Wuaixia
Hong Kong Action (modern) Supplement of Gun Fu!
etc,etc,

Now for Adventure "Menus"? I could always borrow from Feng Shui!

[Mike Holmes]

As for the multiplayer thing. If the fights are balanced, could one 6 dice Fu Fighter (oooh, I like that. Fu Fighters!) battle against two 3 dice fighters? Could be, I need to kick this one around and playtest it a bit.

Beware the Fuzzy-Wuzzy fallacy*. It states that multiple men each with a fraction of the power of a single opposing man are often more than a match for him. In the case above, what you'd have to worry about is whether the 6 die guy is actually twice as effective. Can he block both attacks from his opponents? Can he damage them as fast as they can damage him? If not, the reduction of power that the 2 man team will have after losing one member will come too late to save the single man.

OTOH, if the single guy can truely dish out as well as he takes, he'll win nearly every time because of the reduction in power of the 2 man team after one goes down. Not easy to balance these things. Lots of playtesting on this one, I'd think.

Mike

*Comes from the fact that the Fuzzy-Wuzzy tribe armed with spears would often overrun European troops armed with guns. Sure they'd take lots of casualties, but in the end they'd win the battle and destroy their enemy with alarming regularity (the situation in the movie Zulu notwithstanding). Used by grognards to explain similar game situations. As in the game Ogre by Steve Jackson where it was found early on that a team constructed soley of whimpy GEVs could destroy an Ogre of equal point value every time out.