[Power 19] - Kaneon

[oriondarkwood]

[David Berg]

Hi Orion,

Re: your hobby becoming your job, I would love to make a living doing RPG design myself, but most of the info I've been given has led me to believe that the best case scenario in indie publishing is in the vicnity of "make 10k a year after 5+ years of having really successful product out there", and there are only a few guys writing game text for Wizards of the Coast etc. who make much more (someone at Mongoose gave me a guess that Monte Cook makes 30k).  Anyway, feel free to inquire further in the Publishing forum.  I'm no expert.

For this thread, let us know what kind of feedback you want on Kaneon!  Any one of your 19 answers could spawn a long discussion, so tell us where you want to start!

[Troy_Costisick]

Hi there!

Welcome to the Forge.  I hope that you find this place really helpful for your game design.  I have a few points and questions about your game.  It's a good start, but as with any design, it could use some polishing and a tightening of the focus.

2.) What do the characters do?
With almost 25,000 years of history, its wide open

Sometimes "wide open" can prove to be a barrier to play.  When anything is possible, the players can feel at a loss as to what their goals and aspirations for their characters should be.  It's kind of like telling a classroom full of high school kids to "write a paper" without giving them any guidelines or structure.  They'll be lost and the quality of the work will vary a great deal.  So let me ask, of all the things characters *could* do in your game, what are the five most interesting things to you as the designer/player?

Re: your hobby becoming your job, I would love to make a living doing RPG design myself, but most of the info I've been given has led me to believe that the best case scenario in indie publishing is in the vicnity of "make 10k a year after 5+ years of having really successful product out there"

I want to echo David's sentiment here.  It's easy to make a profit selling games.  It's darn near impossible to make a living doing that.  If you have a chance to talk to Fred Hicks (iago here on the boards) about it, perhaps he can give you some pointers.  Based on the experience I've had prublishing games, I would suggest having modest goals for your first publication.  Treat it as a learning experience that you can apply later.  If you exceed your modest goals, then great!  That's awesome.  But if you fail miserably to meet an extreemly high target for success, it could discourage you from ever taking up the design process again.  And that's really all I have to say about that.  It's not something that's really pertinent to your design.  The publishing forum is really a better place to discuss the business end of RPG publication. 

Peace,

-Troy

[oriondarkwood]

Hi Orion,

Re: your hobby becoming your job, I would love to make a living doing RPG design myself, but most of the info I've been given has led me to believe that the best case scenario in indie publishing is in the vicnity of "make 10k a year after 5+ years of having really successful product out there", and there are only a few guys writing game text for Wizards of the Coast etc. who make much more (someone at Mongoose gave me a guess that Monte Cook makes 30k).  Anyway, feel free to inquire further in the Publishing forum.  I'm no expert.

For this thread, let us know what kind of feedback you want on Kaneon!  Any one of your 19 answers could spawn a long discussion, so tell us where you want to start!

David,

That I understand, the RPG market will not make me rich. And as I said I am not sure if I want my hobby to become my job, ie what is I grow to hate RPGing because its my job and not my escape? As far as feedback on Kaneon I am not looking specfic feedback pre say more just to see what interest it would generate.

[oriondarkwood]

Hi there!

Welcome to the Forge.  I hope that you find this place really helpful for your game design.  I have a few points and questions about your game.  It's a good start, but as with any design, it could use some polishing and a tightening of the focus.

2.) What do the characters do?
With almost 25,000 years of history, its wide open

Sometimes "wide open" can prove to be a barrier to play.  When anything is possible, the players can feel at a loss as to what their goals and aspirations for their characters should be.  It's kind of like telling a classroom full of high school kids to "write a paper" without giving them any guidelines or structure.  They'll be lost and the quality of the work will vary a great deal.  So let me ask, of all the things characters *could* do in your game, what are the five most interesting things to you as the designer/player?

Re: your hobby becoming your job, I would love to make a living doing RPG design myself, but most of the info I've been given has led me to believe that the best case scenario in indie publishing is in the vicnity of "make 10k a year after 5+ years of having really successful product out there"

I want to echo David's sentiment here.  It's easy to make a profit selling games.  It's darn near impossible to make a living doing that.  If you have a chance to talk to Fred Hicks (iago here on the boards) about it, perhaps he can give you some pointers.  Based on the experience I've had prublishing games, I would suggest having modest goals for your first publication.  Treat it as a learning experience that you can apply later.  If you exceed your modest goals, then great!  That's awesome.  But if you fail miserably to meet an extreemly high target for success, it could discourage you from ever taking up the design process again.  And that's really all I have to say about that.  It's not something that's really pertinent to your design.  The publishing forum is really a better place to discuss the business end of RPG publication. 

Peace,

-Troy

Got a point, there is so much history. But I partially disagree because WOTC gaming worlds have long histories as well and when I say it spans 25,000 years they are many of those years nothing of major important happened. Such as the the 2,000 years of expansion of the Bloodrots, they where no major wars or earthshattering inventions. Case in point, when the shuttle first lanched it was a earth shattering event, people from around the world took notice. However does anyone really watch the shuttle lanches these days.

As for publishing, if I decide to have a real go at it. I have some lesser designs that I plan on publishing and giving away for free or for a modest cost (50 cent PDF's) then publish my more complex designs (not to mention Kaneon is dual use in the fact that I am also a asprining novelist and am in the process of writing novels based in Kaneon).

[David Berg]

As far as feedback on Kaneon I am not looking specfic feedback pre say more just to see what interest it would generate.

Just FYI, ideas posted here on the Forge tend to get more interested responses when they include some sort of "here's what I want help with".

[David Berg]

After providing that caution, I feel I should try to be more encouraging, so here, I'll say what interests me most about your write-up:

The combination of

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The gods take a more active role in the lifes of mortals since their power (aleast for the lesser and greater gods) are directly in tune with thier worshippers

with

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
Characters can rise to godhood

I like games that include both
a) some interesting, colorful, multi-faceted pantheons and metaphysics, and
b) some ways for players to enmesh themselves in those.

[oriondarkwood]

As far as feedback on Kaneon I am not looking specfic feedback pre say more just to see what interest it would generate.

Just FYI, ideas posted here on the Forge tend to get more interested responses when they include some sort of "here's what I want help with".

Understood, then I post the question do you think people with go for a structured XP system ie in Kaneon stats are rolled as usual D&D and then your race/class and advatnages and disvantages (such as natural ability which rasies one stat to 20, wealthy which starts you off which triple gold etc.. etc.) these are a character point cost and only can be purchased at character creation. Then depending on the Character Point cost is your XP structure ie

0 - 100 CP - 5000 XP (ie you have to earn 5000XP time level to advatnage to the next level ie 5th level would cost 25,000 to advance to)
101 - 200 CP - 10,000 XP
201 - 300 CP - 15.000XP
301 plus CP - 20,000XP

Which I have changed the monster XP to its HD * 1000XP * a diffculty factor of 1 - 10 obivious a 5HD demon is going to be harder to slay than a 5HD orc

[oriondarkwood]

After providing that caution, I feel I should try to be more encouraging, so here, I'll say what interests me most about your write-up:

The combination of

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?
The gods take a more active role in the lifes of mortals since their power (aleast for the lesser and greater gods) are directly in tune with thier worshippers

with

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?
Characters can rise to godhood

I like games that include both
a) some interesting, colorful, multi-faceted pantheons and metaphysics, and
b) some ways for players to enmesh themselves in those.

I always like the concept of gods being more hands on in the affairs of mortals not to mention gods can die or be replaced by worth mortals ,but not in the sense that Bob the Fighter becomes Bob the god of warriors.. Bob would replace (thur combat or other means) the current Relvar which happens to be the god of war and adventure in Kaneon

[David Berg]

Re: your character point and XP scheme, I'm still not sure what you want help with.  If you tell me what you hope it'll accomplish, and you want to know whether people here think it will accomplish that, then I could weigh in on that... although I don't know how much that'd really be useful to you.

Bob would replace (thur combat or other means) the current Relvar which happens to be the god of war and adventure in Kaneon

As a player thinking of playing Kaneon, one of my first questions might be:

Am I guaranteed to become a god?  Or am I at least guaranteed the opportunity to become a god?  Like, I can win godhood by playing well?  If I do get to become a god, how long will I ahve to play the game to get there?

[oriondarkwood]

Re: your character point and XP scheme, I'm still not sure what you want help with.  If you tell me what you hope it'll accomplish, and you want to know whether people here think it will accomplish that, then I could weigh in on that... although I don't know how much that'd really be useful to you.

Bob would replace (thur combat or other means) the current Relvar which happens to be the god of war and adventure in Kaneon

As a player thinking of playing Kaneon, one of my first questions might be:

Am I guaranteed to become a god?  Or am I at least guaranteed the opportunity to become a god?  Like, I can win godhood by playing well?  If I do get to become a god, how long will I ahve to play the game to get there?

David,

To answer your questions

In Kaneon, the path to godhood is a long and torturous road, even the bravest of mortals have been passed over for godhood. Some have taken it, others have became gods because of need. A case study

Curin Grimhammer, patron god of dwarves. Started as a mere mortal, during his adventuring career he saw the drawven clans loosing thier way, allowing outsiders more and more access to the drawven secrets. To this end he became the lord of the clans and tried to make them change thier ways. Ethos the Scorekeeper (a eldar god, short and dirty is the gods where born from one entity and existence is a game for them to be played, at the end the prize is nothing more than bragging rights in the cold seconds before the universe returns to the one entity and is reborn) saw a chance to balance some of the scores and altered fate slightly so that Curin would to return to the Abyss once again to battle the 3 demon masters and the ones that started the war between the Balor and the Tanarti with the help of his faithful allies he defeated the 3 demon masters. However the gate between the planes was closing and it was decided that one needed to stay behind and physically hold the gate open. Curin chose that honor.

He was taken prisoner by the Balor, that night a dwaven seer had a vision, the vision of what Curin would become and what his return would mean for the dwarves. Shortly thereafter he formed the Cult of the Hammer and told the prophecy that a pure dwarf born of the blood of Curin on the first stroke of the new year could quest for Curin's weapon that was lost in the void between the planes. In the meantime Curin was tortured and ripped apart only to become whole again every night. This combined with the powers of the Abyss he became a demi-god. After the Quest Child freed him, he took revenge on all drawves that did not keep themselves pure in his eyes (ie shaved thier beards, consorted with outsiders, etc.. etc..). During this time the other gods set up tests for him to enter into the realms of a true god. Which after many trials he did..

However the story did not end on a happy note Archon the Lord of Chaos, seeking revenge for things Curin did to Archon's Fortress in his mortal life (basically Curin destoryed his flag ship and killed his top general in the 2nd war of the Dark One) killed him and sent his body to Side8 (a prison outside time and space for Sacleft aka the Sewed god, for she along knows how to destory creation once and for all)

[David Berg]

Was Curin a player character?  If so, how long did this saga take in play sessions?  (I am trying to figure out what Kaneon offers beyond any D&D game, and this is the first thing that occurs to me.  In D&D3, you'd have to tweak the XP awards like crazy to pull this off in less than multiple years.  I think.)

[oriondarkwood]

Was Curin a player character?  If so, how long did this saga take in play sessions?  (I am trying to figure out what Kaneon offers beyond any D&D game, and this is the first thing that occurs to me.  In D&D3, you'd have to tweak the XP awards like crazy to pull this off in less than multiple years.  I think.)

Yes, it took place over almost 2 years of gaming almost every Sat 11am - 10ish pm and some solo questing.
The techinal details behind it was he was close to 20th level when he got imprisoned in the Abyss and turned into Demi-God from there your abilty and power is more from worship and your rank as a god. In Kaneon the ranks of godhood are

Demi-God - the power to sink a contient
Lesser-God the power to destory a planet
Greater God the power of to destory a solar system
Eldar God - the power to destory a plane of existance

In Kaneon most gods are not truely immortal they can be killed, althought to destory to take over thier sphere of influnce is another matter altogether. The only truly immortal gods of Kaneon are:

The Giver - the one enity that from which creation is de-evolved into
Ethos, the Scorekeeper. - he exists outside of time and space to watch the great game
Saroleth - The goddess of one word - Created for the sole purpose of being the end of creation forever
Thane - the soul raker, ie death, He was born before the Giver and shall die as the last heartbeat of the Giver finishes..







As far as what sets Kaneon apart from other D&D worlds:
- Steampunk
- Ability to travel thurout the galaxy
- Different race and classes along with weapons, feats and stuff
- Storyline and History

[David Berg]

I didn't say that quite right.  Rather than "how was Kaneon as you have already played it different from other games", what I'm trying to get at is "what can you offer to players with Kaneon?"

Like, let's say I want to play D&D, and I want to use steampunk flavor, and I want to travel galaxies, and I want to play races and classes that I haven't played in my previous D&D games.  Well, I can do all that myself.  So I'll only bother with Kaneon products if they help me do that in some significant way.  What ways do you intend to provide such help?

Or, let's say I want to play D&D, but I want inspiration to try something new.  What inspires me?  Cool ideas, good stories, distinct visual style, great art, quality writing.  Kaneon would have to do very well on some of those fronts to hook my interest.  What ways do you intend to provide inspiration?

Hope this is helpful.  If you'd prefer to steer this thread in a different direction, just say so.

Ps,
-David

P.S. I wouldn't include something that takes 2 years of 11 hrs/wk to achieve as a hook for prospective players.  I'd either keep "players as demi-gods" as a clearly secondary feature, or I'd make it a big hook and start everyone at 19th level.

[oriondarkwood]

I didn't say that quite right.  Rather than "how was Kaneon as you have already played it different from other games", what I'm trying to get at is "what can you offer to players with Kaneon?"

Like, let's say I want to play D&D, and I want to use steampunk flavor, and I want to travel galaxies, and I want to play races and classes that I haven't played in my previous D&D games.  Well, I can do all that myself.  So I'll only bother with Kaneon products if they help me do that in some significant way.  What ways do you intend to provide such help?

Or, let's say I want to play D&D, but I want inspiration to try something new.  What inspires me?  Cool ideas, good stories, distinct visual style, great art, quality writing.  Kaneon would have to do very well on some of those fronts to hook my interest.  What ways do you intend to provide inspiration?

Hope this is helpful.  If you'd prefer to steer this thread in a different direction, just say so.

Ps,
-David

P.S. I wouldn't include something that takes 2 years of 11 hrs/wk to achieve as a hook for prospective players.  I'd either keep "players as demi-gods" as a clearly secondary feature, or I'd make it a big hook and start everyone at 19th level.

Hmm I see your point, the best way I can answer your question is yes you could create a steampunkish world similar to Kaneon but the main hook for Kaneon is not just adventure in a world that is steampunkish with D&D rules, but to adventure in a living breathing world, where you know that your typical Dergian (human subrace) would sneer at the thought of riding horseback. Or the mental picture thrill of going into the temple of Scallia (goddess of torture, snakes and cold blood) on Deathknell island, knowing the head priest is the latest in a lineage of Deathknells that goes back thousands of years.. of seeing fresh blood coating a altar that has the blood of thousands of loyal priests on it.. Or journeying to the far reaches of space and encountering creatures that would rip thur a heavily armored epic level fighter in mere rounds.. of feeling the power of wielding a dragonslayer rifle but also knowing that a single shell costs 10,000gp..