Using CDs as a playing surface.

[Vulpinoid]

I'm not really sure whether this belongs more as a "first thought", or as a publishing idea.

Since it's still in the first stages of development, I've included it here.

For just over a year now, I've been developing a few games that have used a concept where poker chips are laid out on the table to form a playing surface for a game. For these purposes, the pokers chips are aligned as closely as possible in a hexagonal grid. Each colour of chip has indicated something different, with common themes including the notion that white chips tend to be fairly safe, red chips tend to be dangerous (or could be mission objective points), black chips could be no-go zones, blue could represent water and green could be forests...etc.

The system has worked with varying degrees f success, based on the type of game I've tried to apply it to. Games of exploration, or treasure hunts seem to work fairly well in this regard, with players moving figures or dice across the poker-chip maps. The minimal variety in poker chips (typically only 5 colours or so) has meant that my designs have been forced to keep the options limited. This has meant easier pick-up for new players (less complicated stuff to remember), but has limited the tactical potential.

A recent look at the Arkenstone Publishing site got me thinking...

What the back of the box doesn't say (it being obvious if you have the box) is that the game is packaged into a VHS cassette case. I love that solution! It's durable, stylish and easily reopenable. Looks just like a movie. Cool all around.

As a result of this, I've been considering something new.

I'm considering the notion of packaging the game as a CD, the contents of the CD would be a computer program that creates templates that can be printed onto those white-sided printable CDs.

CDs being round, are able to be laid out in the same pattern as the poker chips (naturally linking up to 6 potential neighbours), they've also become relatively inexpensive in recent years.

The initial premise of the game would be a cave network being explored by goblins who are all trying to become the Goblin King. Printed onto the CDs would be rooms, junctions, underground rivers and similar subterranean features.

All the players start at a single underground goblin village, they take turns laying down a series of CDs immediately around their village (ensuring passages and junctions line up as new CDs are placed). They may then head out and explore, gather resources toward their struggle, or fight dangerous opponents (like marauding adventurers). If the group runs out of CDs, then the edges of the map could be passages out of the goblin mountain leading to the outside world (or maybe cave-ins)...haven't fully decided.

New CDs could be released with expansion packs that generate new templates and provide additional treasures/monsters/etc.

I've event considered the notion of making the game GM-less and allowing players to play the CD as a program on their computer as a general rules adjudicator (this would allow me to get really crunchy with the game mechanics, without slowing down game-play because the computer handles all the calculations after a series of base parameters have been entered. The CD could include an audio file (or even a video) of a game in progress, there seems to be some good potential in the concept.

If I packaged it as a single CD, I could include a little rule booklet to explain the basics and get the players going. If I packaged it as a spindle of 10 CDs (or even a 25 pack), I'd be able to present an immediately playable product (but at heightened cost).

My first main point of discussion for this concept is...

Do you think people would want to buy a bunch of blank CDs to print their maps onto?

Further discussions and queries regarding the idea are welcome...

V

[David C]

My first thought when reading this is "Why are you focusing so much on the gimmicks?" I imagine this is because you're a very marketing oriented person (is your career in Marketing?)  Gimmicks can be cool, but if the game isn't sound, it gets old fast. Compare mouse trap with Khet (http://www.khet.com/). Mouse trap was fun as a kid, but how many times did you play it? Twice?  Khet, on the other hand, has very sound mechanics and is lauded as "Gimmicky, but never boring!"   Don't let me paint this as bad, though.  In fact, it's very innovative.

My next thought is, while poker chips are readily available and not technical to use, printing cds is VERY technical and not very readily available.  You need a printer, a computer, and the know how.  Also, since circles waste space when oriented as a hex grid, CDs would waste a lot of space, since they are larger. 

Instead, I encourage you to imagine the possibilities of turning this into something more akin to a collectible card game.  Find the cheapest way to print cardboard hexes, design a bunch of hexes, and sell them in a starter pack.  Later on, you could make series of hexes that you get a random selection from.   Maybe some hexes look identical, but have something special on the reverse side, and when you explore them, you flip them over and see what's there.  If you price your game at a very reasonable price (which most collectible card games are not), you would probably get a good return on the investment of printing in the first place.

I don't know the details of your game, so take my words with a grain of salt.

[Eero Tuovinen]

David has good stuff, I'm on his wavelength. Also, I have a personal problem with this, completely irrationally insofar as I know - printing empty CDs and using them to play seems very wasteful to me, which I don't like aesthetically. That's not what those disks are for, and they have lots of potential in data storage if they're not ruined by playing around with them. I would at least require the game to have the further gimmick of burning each CD with some content that is inserted into a player to execute when the CD is activated in the game... which is far from feasible as a game mechanic, but at least it satisfies my sense of wastage.

Hexes, on the other hand are cool, I like those! Poker chips are also an amusing tool for this sort of thing.

[Vulpinoid]

I suspected that this would be the reaction.

Background for the idea is the fact that our house burns through a hundred or more CDs per month, with a typical fail rate between 3 and 5%. This means that over the course of a couple of years I've developed a pile of almost a hundred printable CDs that are dead. I've just been looking for uses for them.

I guess that around here, burning and printing CDs is second nature, but for most people this is still a cumbersome process.

And as for the gimmick factor, yes, I'll accept that this is a gimmick, but no less so than saying "Look over here, my game uses a mechanic where you roll 3d12 then eliminate the high and low rolls to determine skill results!!! No one else does that."

On the other hand, I was looking at using the data storage capacity of the CD as a method to transmit game related data, background systems and even sound effects or other features for a more immersive experience. Perhaps even offering iso files from a company website that might allow the burning of new CDs with additional features.

I guess it comes down to the concept of how much work someone would want to endure before they were ready to play a game. Unless it's a damned good game, then the extra work probably isn't justified.

Back to the drawing board.

V

[JohnG]

V,

What's wrong with a gimmick?  For that matter what's wrong with using CDs and wasting their "storage potential"?  Here's what you do buddy, you put the game together using these CDs if you want to, and I personally think it's a great idea.  Once you're out of those ruined CDs and if the game goes somewhere, you could just use plastic discs if you're not storing data, and use an actual CD for the dics that'll have game data/campaign/whatever.  I think this is worth exploring, and there's certainly ways of reducing the work required to play, check out Zombies!!! for a game with a similar gimmick (just not cds).  Zombies!!! runs quick and fun and you could borrow lots of info from that.

Keep fighting the good fight
John
Headtripgames

[David Artman]

The minimal variety in poker chips (typically only 5 colours or so) has meant that my designs have been forced to keep the options limited. This has meant easier pick-up for new players (less complicated stuff to remember), but has limited the tactical potential.

Two things:
1) There are at least ten common chip colors. These are 8¢ each:
http://www.pokerchips.com/chips/plastic%20chips/plasticchips.html
Thus, you could pretty cheaply offer the game WITH chips, and save your CD for the templates to print on paper (I presume movement of chips becomes relevant, else the paper would suffice) and the system aids and PDF and so-forth.

Neat idea, at its root: requiring a PC of some kind to play a game using a very ancient playing piece type (the "stone" or "bead" ~= poker chip). You should figure out a way to integrate the name "Ludd" into the game title.

2) You really, really need to check out the Icehouse System:
http://www.looneylabs.com/whybuy/treehouse.html
If you make and play abstract games like you've described, you're in for a WORLD of fun with Icehouse. Nine transparent colors of pyramids, three opaque colors; all in three stackable sizes; currently over 200 games on the wiki... I think you'll be pleased.

Mind you, it's not the cheapest complete system to buy--you'll be in about $120 for all 12 colors of full stashes (15: 5 x each of 3 sizes). And you have to buy Gray and (the pending) Pink online (currently). But even just five stashes of one Treehouse set (yeah, it's a bit confusing) opens up about 150 games for you--it's us fetishists that simply MUST have one fo each color stash... and an extra two Treehouse sets, for games which use just that (easier to get out and put away than grabbing one stack from five different tubes of colors)... and two sets of Martian Coasters and some Cosmic Coasters and....

Anyway, just thought I'd make sure you knew about the system--it's genius, and possibly the first invented game piece type since the playing card.

Do you think people would want to buy a bunch of blank CDs to print their maps onto?

Dunno about "people," but I wouldn't. Compared to chips, the scale of CD is WAY too big for my tastes, unless it's leveraged in some manner (ex: dungeon tiles, with more details than just a solid color). And then you've got the hole, and the clear plastic center disc, and the fact that they are STILL, what, 50¢ each? What's the "value add" from these that I don't get from dungeon tile... or just printing out onto paper and cutting out as a square, circle, whatever (hex is ideal, by your description)?

Don't let me discourage you... but you'd have to "sell" me on why using printable CDs is a bonus, compared to any number of cheaper (and more environmentally friendly) alternatives.

[Vulpinoid]

What's wrong with a gimmick?  For that matter what's wrong with using CDs and wasting their "storage potential"?

I guess that this touches aspects at the core of game design here at The Forge.

"Design the games that you want to play, if other people want to play them then it's a great bonus."

Two things:
1) There are at least ten common chip colors. These are 8¢ each:

My comment along these lines was derived from purchasing a set of "poker chips", and looking at many of the available sets that can be found in discount stores and hobby stores. Most of the sets only have 5 colours, and I've only seen one or two that contain 6. I haven't looked at companies dedicated to the production of poker chips, because I cast resins and plastics myself. I've actually been working on the concept of custom made hexes and chips for certain game ideas.

2) You really, really need to check out the Icehouse System:

...

Anyway, just thought I'd make sure you knew about the system--it's genius, and possibly the first invented game piece type since the playing card.

I have looked at these. Haven't had the chance to buy any (and therefore haven't been able to play any of the games...or design new ones), but it's on my to do list.

Don't let me discourage you... but you'd have to "sell" me on why using printable CDs is a bonus, compared to any number of cheaper (and more environmentally friendly) alternatives.

I'm just trying to explore new options here. I've pretty much been exclusively playing with cerebral concepts in game design over the past couple of months, so I had the urge to tinker with some more physical ideas. A gradually growing pile of CDs got me thinking.

The size of the CD was certainly something to be taken into consideration, and in this regard I'm intending to divide the surface into a smaller hex grid of 3-4-5-4-3 configuration, the central point of this lesser grid contains the CD hole and would be an objective point. The play of the game would almost be like Roborally, with different hex grids containing underground pitfalls, or flowing streams that allow only one-way passage (or push characters along). When two characters end on the same hex they can fight, trade, plot or otherwise roleplay out a scene.

I haven't decided whether to make the maps as top-down realistic renderings of cave systems (and dungeon ruins), or whether it would be more in keeping with the game to make the map look like a neolithic scrawl with chalk on a stone surface. The juxtaposition of the second option seems more fun to me at the moment.

The main design objective here is to produce a simple game with big easy pieces (CDs, and either figures or movement tokens). A game that could be used pretty easily with kids, but with the potential for development through strategic play. It's seeking to emulate a struggle for power among characters (goblins) who have no idea what power is, and how it can be used. They just know that other people have it and it seems good...they also know that adventurers come to their caves to find it, so there must be power somewhere nearby.

I'm also looking at the notion of making the game a more interactive experience, drawing some more of the computer RPG toward indie gaming by using objects they are currently familiar with (CDs, computer programs, background music), but moving them back toward a social experience of dealing with other players face-to-face.

Perhaps the simplest version of the game could be playable from a pre-printed pack of 10 CDs, not needing anything else to play other than a couple of movement tokens (and maybe a die or two). One CD is randomly drawn from the pile and on this CD is a computer program that provides a couple of potential scenarios to be played through, the remainder are used to build up a cave network. If written up properly, the scenario program could negate the need for dice (or other physical randomising element).

As optional extras on each CD, there could be a pdf game guide and a bunch of extra map templates that could be printed out onto new CDs, thus allowing fanatical players the chance to build cave-systems that cover the entire table.

...

Still needs a lot of work and it's undergoing dramatic revisions in my head every day

V