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Druine, Dunnar, and Half-dead

Started by Ron Edwards, July 14, 2002, 04:55:12 PM

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Jared A. Sorensen

The first characters that I can think of in this style (which no doubt influenced people) were Adam from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Erik from Gaston LeRoux's Phantom of the Opera. One's "undead" and misunderstood, the other scarred and vengeful but romantic. Both are scary, feared by others and possessing great abilities (Adam had awesome strength, Erik was a mad genius).

- J
jared a. sorensen / www.memento-mori.com

jburneko

I'm just posting this for future reference...

The name of the Ravenloft race I couldn't remember is the Caliban.  I found a reference to it on a Ravenloft message board.  The poster claims that The Caliban, or at least the word, is taken from Shakespears's The Tempest, although I can not comment on this since I have not read this particular play.

Jesse

Ron Edwards

Hi there,

Nathan wrote,
"I'm wondering, Ron, are you sure the whole thing isn't just an obligatory nod to the undead trend of the 80s?"

That was my possibility #2, in the opening post of the thread. I have not (and cannot) discount any of the three possibilities. My being "sure" of anything is pretty far off the radar screen of this thread as a whole.

Jesse,
"Caliban" is a character in Shakespeare's The Tempest - a twisted, malevolent monster-guy. Thanks for following up on the published name of the race in question.

Best,
Ron

Gordon C. Landis

Ron beat me to the Leiber originiation for invisisble-fleshed skeletons.  My guess at the "root" for mostly-undead races is . . . the Lich.  Going way back to the Tomb of Horrors and Dark Tower (from Judge's Guild), the Lich was the ultimate nemesis.  And of course, that meant there was always some player that wanted to play a Lich character.

A method to satisfy this desire was needed, and the half-undead race was the solution.  At least, that's be my guess.

Other possibilities - checking with my DD3e GM (winner of the D&D Triviathlon in the waning days of TSR), there was apparently a "Psuedo Undead" monster in the Monster Manual II, based on a cult that had appeared in an RPGA module.

Githzerai/Githyanki, if I recall correctly, go back to the White Dwarf magazine from Games Workshop, whose Warhammer stuff has an "undead" race, don't they?

Another tack is that we're simply talking about Elfs here - without the happy-happy goody-goody veneer, OR the Evil-except-for-for-this-PC drow-thing.

Gordon
www.snap-game.com (under construction)

Le Joueur

Quote from: jburnekoIf Fang's description is the original Githyanki presentation, then when the hell did they become extraplaner creatures from the plane of Limbo who are capable of shaping 'chaos' with their minds?  My only experience with the Githyanki is from the CRPG Planescape: Torment and there isn't any mention of lich kings, or mummy like beings in that.
I have it right from the 'horse's mouth.'  My Fiend Folio was published back in 1981.  I had dropped out long before Planescape ever appeared.

By the by, it turns out the Githzerai are the psychics, were from Limbo, battle the Githyanki, and have a temporary truce with the Illithids.  From 'counter browsing,' I remember that the Illithids figured highly in Planscape print product, so it's no surprise that the Giths' came with.

Quote from: Gordon C. LandisGithzerai/Githyanki, if I recall correctly, go back to the White Dwarf magazine from Games Workshop
Yep, back in the day, they were the exclusive distributor of Dungeon & Dragons in England.  My copy of the Fiend Folio here (who throws anything away?) talks about how the monsters appeared in the pages "of a UK magazine" in a column called the "Fiend Factory."  No doubt this was White Dwarf before TSR pulled their exclusivity.

I know I thought the 'cover beast' from the Fiend Folio was 'too cool' (except the skull-like face, bone-skinny arms, and swirl hair), I even liked the mummy-wraps (what do you want, I was 16).

Now, what was the point of this thread Ron?  Have we satisfied your question or are we going to just keep thrashing around jousting at phantoms?

Fang Langford
Fang Langford is the creator of Scattershot presents: Universe 6 - The World of the Modern Fantastic.  Please stop by and help!

Ron Edwards

Hi Fang,

The benefit of the thread for me is that I'm enjoying myself and learning a lot of things. This kind of comparative musing about different RPGs and influences is a major goal of this forum, which until now has been vastly under-realized.

As far as coming to "proof" or "conclusions" is concerned, that's up to everyone individually, perhaps as modulated by debate if necessary (probably not, in this case).

If the thread seems to have been thrashed out as far as you think it can go, then feel free not to check out further posts ... that's what all of us will do, after all, one by one.

Best,
Ron

greyorm

DragonLance was originally developed as a "module of the month" series, and each was supposed to showcase one of the ten kinds of dragons.  It also expanded into fiction at the same time.  The idea was to have stories which players could re-enact with the modules (you want to talk about hard-core "railroading"...hooo, boy...it started HERE...those modules fell apart if you deviated from the established plot).

JB, Raistlin was not a half-elf, he was fully human.  As to the humans-with-invisible-everything-but-bones: Leiber had those first...one of Fafhrd's lovers was such a creature.

James, DragonLance was not simply inspired by D&D, it was created and published by TSR, the original creators of D&D, and was made up whole-cloth there at the offices (there was no DL game world prior to an internal meeting at TSR, nor any fiction).  It was a purely internal creation, with Weis & Hickman being brought in to develop the fiction aspect of the setting.

And Ron, I have to disagree with your calling him the smoking gun...I personally immediately thought of Elric as the progenitor you were looking for upon reading your first post, and if he doesn't fit the bill, then neither does Raistlin.  

Raistlin is not pale and white, his skin is actually a golden color as a result of the curse he suffers; second, he was a twin, with his brother Caramon being the strong and healthy one (also "good" to his brother's "evil"), a rather important aspect of the character; and he was not in any way remotely undead nor even a necromancer.

If anything, his student Dalamar fits the profile more closely, but I think we're looking in the wrong place for the beginnings of an archetype.
Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
Wild Hunt Studio

Ron Edwards

Hi Raven,

Yeah, at this point I'm thinkin' the Caliban are more likely.

Best,
Ron

greyorm

I dunno, Ron...I'd never even heard of the Caliban until now (well, except for Shakespeare), yet even I'd run across these "poetically tragic" races and characters you've described.

In all honesty, I think it isn't the result of a specific character, but the result (as Nathan pointed out) of the whole "Goth" trend that hit its high-profile/fad point in the 80's when most of the folks who produced the material about were having their opinions and imaginations shaped.
Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan
Wild Hunt Studio

jburneko

An excerpt from my Ravenloft 3E book:

"Thankfully rare, calibans are twisted humans exposed to curses or foul magic while still in the womb."

"Calibans are physically powerful but misshapen humanoids.  No two calibans look alike, but common deformities include twisted backs, or limbs, asymetrical features, bristly skin, or tusklike teeth."

I did have a thought after reading Raven's post.  It occured to me that Ravenloft didn't really take off as a setting until after the release of 2nd Edition D&D.  Calibans use the EXACT same racial modifiers as Half-Orcs.  Half-Orcs were not part of the core races in 2nd Edition but they are back in 3rd Edition.  Therefore, it is entirely possible that the Calibans are a NEW, not an old, invention since the new writers would feel a need to fill the back in vogue Half-Orc role.  Does anyone know if the Calibans actually EXISTED in 2nd Edition Ravenloft?

Jesse

hardcoremoose

I owned just about every Raveloft product for 2E up to a certain point.  I gave up after the second or third of Van Richten's guides, but I'm pretty sure the Caliban were not part of the Ravenloft setting at that time.  I'm certain they weren't included in the core rules, either the initial boxed set, or its revised incarnation.

- Scott

Tim Denee

The necromancer class! I played one back in the day, but my GM made me abandon him after two sessions (he didn't want any evil aligned characters in the party).

He wasn't actually evil. He was a pale, wasted almost-undead looking guy, who wasn't really evil, just misunderstood. If I was to write a Fantasy Heartbreaker (god forbid) I'd definitely include a race based off my necromancer.

I don't know how widespread necromancers were, but I'd imagine they'd be up there with Evil Paladins.

xiombarg

Quote from: Ron EdwardsI buy all your points about the timing and intent of the trend. What I'm after is a smoking gun - the first appearance of a wasted, pale, grim semi-Undead character, probably misunderstood, probably all tormented and dangerous, in a D&D or (as you point out) almost-D&D context.
I'd like to mention in passing a possible influence that hasn't been mentioned so far, but any D&D geek might have read, and might have resulted in this type of character: Lovecraftian ghouls.

Lovecraft's ghouls are nasty, they eat human flesh, and have a sort of dead-yet-rubbery-and-lupine appearance IIRC. But they're a race (more of a offshoot of the human species), and not actually undead. And while they're used as horror elements in "Pickman's Model", they're actually heroes in Lovecraft's only fantasy novel, The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, and they're definately "misunderstood heroes". They eat human carrion but they don't kill people, or mean any harm to humans.

And from this derives a racial template that has been in GURPS for a very long time, almost as long as I can remember. The GURPS "ghoul" is an undead-looking race that isn't actually undead, which eats human carrion and is believed to be evil, but isn't... they're just immune to disease and have a taste for long-dead human flesh. And we shouldn't rule out possible GURPS influence on some of the heartbreakers -- it often gets tried by people trying to break out of D&D.

Even without the possible GURPS influence, reading Lovecraft's only fantasy novel seems a natural for a Heartbreaker author who's interested in horror. (Especially when you consider the novel is often marketed as horror, given Lovecraft's rep, but it clearly ain't if you read it.)
love * Eris * RPGs  * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada
Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- Dance, damn you, dance! -- UNSUNG IS OUT

xiombarg

BTW, as an aside, Caliban were added to 3rd Edition Ravenloft as a half-orc equivalent, so I doubt they influenced any Heartbreakers... yet.

And while I'm rambling, I will note that I have no idea where these odd names for these guys come from, since the natural choice would be "ghoul" if my Lovecraft guess is right. Tho it might be a White Wolf influence. "We can't call it anything NORMAL. We need a strange non-English word for it."
love * Eris * RPGs  * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada
Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- Dance, damn you, dance! -- UNSUNG IS OUT

hive

I think the archetype is just a reverb from any 'cursed' persona from a tragic story. That's what i remember the most about the Monster Manuals & Fiend Folios; them taking classic storylines and myths and converting them to D&D rules so that the players, as heroes, can encounter them. Maybe later, players though about what things might look like from the other side of the treatment.

I think if you wanted to you could say the archetype is the Grendel or Troll-Mother from Beowulf. Vlad Tepesh from Dracula. The wendigo. Any cursed monster that has the semblance of humanity that exist among the periphery of humanity. Just take the cursed aspect, apply it to racial standards, then give them descriptors.

-
h

"wherein sits the monster brood, whereout lies humans, food."