Druine, Dunnar, and Half-dead

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Hmmmm, so we should add the Caliban as a member of the Heartbreaker panoply of races of this type, not as the originator. Hmmm-mm.

I think some folks are missing the point of the thread, though. Clearly, the overall archetype we're talking about is not new or original; I'm not looking for the literary source (Frankenstein's monster, Lovecraft's ghouls, etc). I'm curious specifically about the derivative nature of these seven or eight particular role-playing games, and their relationship to the texts and actual play of D&D. When I see a common thing in these games, I'm interested in whether it has a "common ancestor," as Paul put it, in the D&D history.

That's the only topic at hand. As I said, we may come up empty, although enough seems to have arisen at least to suggest a composite origin from those sources.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. Look at it this way. The cat people phenomenon, which is much more pronounced in Heartbreakers, almost certainly takes from the Kzin (and their weird inclusion in the Star Trek Animated TV show). Bird people from Flash Gordon (I wanna be Brian Blessed!) and other myriad influences like Hawkman. These didn't come from D&D (though I'd woudn't be surprised to find that somesuch race did exist in D&D, the fact that I cannot remember such is enough for me to dismiss it as an influence). They came from outside influences that were just as potent as D&D to designers.

So, these designers want players to be able to play undead. I ascribe to the theory of the poster that said that they thought that these races were just an attempt to have an Undead race. The problem is that the Undead can't reproduce, so you can't have a race, per se. So what do you do? Make a race that is "like the undead" in almost every way.

Why does this strike me as so likely? Because, when I read that post, I remembered making a heartbreaker-like game in the eighties, and going through exactly the same logic. I want players to be able to play an undead race. But you can't have an undead race. So I'll make one that is like undead. At which point I rejected the idea as bing silly because that wasn't what I'd set out to do. It become an unsolvable conundrum.

It's weird to remember thinking in such a D&D mindframe. It's the notion that a character must have a race, class, etc breakdown. Why, if a player could play an animated skeleton, then he could play a dragon. Then where's your game balance gone? Has to ba a balanced race.

Man I'm glad we're past that sort of thinking.

Mike

[damion]

After reading anyones comments, I think we could pin the phenomenon in question on a combination of Ron's option.
I think Option one + two provided the modivation for the semi-undead races. (Literature+the inate 'coolness' of being
a misunderstood 'not-quite-evil' charachter.) Then option 3, in the form of the Githyanki and possibly the Caliban provided the validation of the concept. Ron's description of these games indicates a derivative nature. (Many of their innovations are listed as options.) Thus, they might not have wished to create playable 'undead' without some indication that this was ok. Or to put it another way, these 'semi-undead' may not have existed without some 'semi-undead' element in DnD.

Kirt: Good point about Lovecraftian ghouls, although I'd be disinclined to count them without some other evidence of Lovecraft influence, as the ghouls were a realy minor part of the Mythos. Anyone know if these games have other Lovecraft like elements?

edit:Mike brought up CoC. Ghoul's wern't to big in Lovecraft's fiction, but seemed more common in game. If nothing else because it was concievable that you wouldn't have to make a whole new group after meeting them.

[Mike Holmes]

Kirt: Good point about Lovecraftian ghouls, although I'd be disinclined to count them without some other evidence of Lovecraft influence, as the ghouls were a realy minor part of the Mythos. Anyone know if these games have other Lovecraft like elements?

Well, Deathstalkers is a Fantasy/Horror game. And CoC is from pretty early on. Ghouls as presented in there could constitute an influence timewise. OTOH, they were not a player race by any means. It would have taken a pretty big leap to get to ghouls as something to play (got my ass kicked memorably by a ghoul in CoC once; made me want to kill 'em, not play 'em).

Mike

[contracycle]

Perhaps ring wraiths too?

[Jesse Paulsen]

While I'm looking outside the gaming industry, I should mention Ann Rice's Interview With The Vampire and  Vampire Hunter D as a significant influences to this trend.

Clearly Vampire Hunter D is not part of D&D history, but I think it has been a strong influence on undead-like races in D&D homebrew rules and Fantasy Heartbreakers.

A search for "dhampir" on Google produces some goth poetry as the first result, but the second result is a fairly scholarly account of the underlying legends, followed by information for use as a race in Ravenloft.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I don't know. We may be looking for a smoking gun when all there really is is a bunch of bloody daggers.

It may be, as has been suggested eariler in this thread, that these races are a bi-product of what seems to be a recent trend (probably not all that recent. Is two decades old recent?) of making monster races into PC races, Orkworld being just one example, Vampire being another. It is simple logic to bring in an undead, or semi-undead race. But this doesn't explain the gross similarities between them, unless it's linked to ghouls in CoC or, perhaps, all of the authors saw The Hobbit as kids.

[Gordon C. Landis]

So . . . my instinct here is that this is a really old phenomena, definitely pre-Vampire.  I saw plenty of homebrews with this feature (in some form)  back in the late 70's.  Talislanta has certainly got a race or three that qualifies - but Talislanta has a ton of races, and probably is either a bit late and/or a bit out of the main D&D track to "count".  Some places to look:

Is there anything like this in Glorantha?  I'm pretty sure there's nothing in C&S or T&T that really fits.  What about Harn?  Or Arduin?  (I bet there's something in Arduin.  I never was into it, and that *always* turns out to be where trends I don't get are from - like gunpowder/tech in your Fantasy)  

What about the old computer games - Wizardry, Ultima, Bard's Tale?  Early incarnations only, of course.

But it may be that the "find a 'balanced' way to let a PC be kinda-undead, 'cause undead are just uber-cool" (to summarize Mike's summary) is all there is to it - a shared desire that shows up in a bunch of games.  Or . . . hey, isn't this the "Wild Elf?"  Elf's, but nastier and more mysterious?  Hmm, no real undead connection though.  If only Wild Elves were Necromancers . . .

Gordon

[Paganini]

I don't know. We may be looking for a smoking gun when all there really is is a bunch of bloody daggers.

ROFLOL! That's classic, Jack! I'm putting it in my sig.

[contracycle]

Maybe there is an element of the supers trope of "imposed superiority".  The virtue of the Undead is that they are ex-human, and therefore arguably more accessible than elves.  Maybe being undead if the FRP equivalent of being bitten by a radioactive spider.

[RobMuadib]

Ron

I would have to pitch in with Fang here, the very first thing that came to my mind when you asked your question was the Githiyanki. The fact that it was on the cover of the original Fiend Folio, and was just hella cool I think it would have loomed large in the collective heartbreaker community.

Since all of these heartbreaker authors presumably came from (A)D&D first, I can imagine it being the most likely common source. They definitely looked skeletal/mummy like, had some of the absolute coolest swords in all of AD&D (githiyanki silver swords could cut the astral silver thread, how cool is that.) They just looked damn cool. Being on a book cover can really add some resonance, I mean you don't see any flumph races in all these games (the only LG race in the original Fiend Folio:)).

Beyond that you have the Harryhausen type skeletons from Sinbad, Clash of the Titan's, and a few other movies of that era.

But I say the Githiyanki, if not the smoking gun, definitely left the largest amount of trace gunpowder there.

laterz

Rob

[Ron Edwards]

Hi everyone,

Well, I never expected this query to spawn five pages of almost-fully relevant, non-argumentative text. Thanks to everyone for joining in.

I've come to my conclusion, which is pretty much that the Githyanki (in specifics) and Ravenloft (composite, just "scary") were the main influences, and that no direct smoking gun seems evident. By "conclusion," I mean, provisional generalization - not truth or proof or belief. I'm sure everyone else, if they care, has come to a conclusion or another as well, whatever it might be.

Anyway, unless someone simply must contribute to the thread, I'm ready to call it quits. Thanks again.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Can't resist, Ron, I've got one more note. It occured to me after I mentioned Hawkman, and then read Gareth's post:

Maybe there is an element of the supers trope of "imposed superiority".  The virtue of the Undead is that they are ex-human, and therefore arguably more accessible than elves.  Maybe being undead if the FRP equivalent of being bitten by a radioactive spider.

I think it is a comics thing. Again, looking at the this one race only gives us part of the picture. It's the urge to Wish Fulfilment that is fed by comics. In the comics you have winged folk commonly enough, and more than one cat-type girl. You also have ghost-rider, and a number of other nigh-undead superhero types (I'm sure we can think up several if we try). In other words, I see this as an attempt by designers to allow players to play any of those common forms of Wish Fulfilments. In the case of avian people, the will to be able to fly. In the case of the frail cat people, it's an odd fetish thing (they make much better female NPCs than they do PCs, often). Beefy cat people are a male superiority thing. As are the wolf-people (though it's very obvious where they come from). Bear folk even more so (they come straight from Beorn in Middle Earth; they are a semi-race in MERP, "Beornings").

Undead folk? Same as the urge to play vampires, the idea of superhuman strenght or endurance or longevity. Whatever is common in these races. And the Gothy coolness that I mentioned. Interestingly, the ubiquitous elves are just the lively, beautiful (Elric like?) counterparts. Which is why the dark elves seem very close to thse creatures (in one of the drow series of modules there is a drow with a vampiric magic item, and in another an actual vampire drow, IIRC). They fulfil most of the same niches.

These games all have "everything but the kitchen sink" when it comes to races. The undead race just fills that particular wish fulfilment niche. Less important than some, it only made it into three heartbreakers (and a few other products). If they had been seen as truely important, they would have made it into all the rest of the heartbreakers like the cat people.

Mike

[TSL]

Or Arduin?  (I bet there's something in Arduin.  I never was into it, and that *always* turns out to be where trends I don't get are from - like gunpowder/tech in your Fantasy)  
Gordon

You Sir, get the prize.  I missed this thread or I would have commented long ago.  

Ron, I present you with   [dramatic pause]- The Deodanth.  A player character race from the earliest Arduin days (obviously somewhat Jack Vance inspired) with obsidian black skin, but a "wasted undead" appearance.  Their bites even transfered negative energy causing potential experience drain.

I'd throw them in with the 'composite picture'.