How important is system to success?

[Seamus]

Hello All,

I am new here. Hopefully this is the correct place to post this. If not, I apologize.

I am starting my own game company later this year, and am preparing my flagship game for release. We worked really hard to come up with a great setting concept, and equally hard to create a cool system.

Here is my question. This is a considerable investment of time and money, so I would like it to be a big success. How worried should I be about the quality of the game system if the setting is bright enough to shine on its own? Don't get me wrong, the system is good. Its just, I am so close to the project, its hard to just the mechanics at this point (even after a bit of playtesting). I know the mechanics work. And I know we our mechanics fit the setting better than other system out there. But how important are they to the success of my game?

[whiteknife]

Well, in my opinion they matter a lot, but they're not everything. I like to think of it as your setting drawing them in and the system keeping them there. Unless your rules are truly excellent, they aren't going to get me to buy the game by themselves. At the same time, if your setting is just another generic world populated by all sorts of weird shit but nothing particularly interesting, then you'll need some great rules as backup.

[David C]

How hard is your system?

Very hard/very sim = System is very important
...
Extremely Easy = System not important in the least

People don't want to spend a lot of time learning a game with a bad system.  For example, Tic-Tac Toe has a really terrible system, but it is so easy, the game is very popular.  Chess has a really great system, but is very difficult and can take decades to master, the game is also very popular. 

[Egonblaidd]

Welcome to The Forge, I hope you find the people here as helpful as I have.

The system is just one aspect of many that make up your game.  The five aspects, as defined by Ron Edwards, are System (the method used to play the game), Character (the avatars of the players in your game), Setting [2 3 4] (the world the game takes place in), Situation (the major conflict the players are seeking to resolve), and Color (the details that add life to game).  As such, System is only part of it.  To truly be a great game you need to do well in all five areas.

Now, I don't know if this is your first RPG you are getting ready to release or if you have several different designs under your belt and are thoroughly experienced, but I'll assume that you are new.  In this case, before you pour a lot of sweat and blood and money into your game, you should look at a number of resources that I have found extremely helpful.  First, many people new to RPG design start off with what is known as a Heartbreaker.  This is by no means a bad thing, and Heartbreakers are an excellent way to get into RPG design.  The RPG I'm working on, which is my first, is a Heartbreaker.  However, where the Heartbreaker gets its name is from new designers that craft what they see as the peak of RPG excellence and pour much time and effort, and money, into publishing their game, only to sell a few copies.  Heartbreakers generally don't sell that well, not unless it is VERY good.  I'm planning on releasing my game for free download, and if people like it enough then I would consider selling printed copies.  Once you get some experience in RPG design under your belt then you can start working on some new project that will benefit from your experiences and be more likely to sell.

So how can you know that you are doing things right?  The following is one method among many, but one I find helpful.  One of the biggest questions you can ask yourself is, "What is my game about?"  If your answer is something like, "It's about going on adventures and stuff," then likely you don't have a good grasp on what it is you are trying to do.  Better answers would be, "It's about finding peace in a war torn world," or, "It's about how much someone is willing to give up in order to attain perfection," or, "It's about fighting evil without becoming evil yourself."  My game is about moral choice, what is important to the characters, and how much are they willing to compromise in order to achieve a goal.  If you can provide a clear answer to this question, then you have a philosophy around which to build all five aspects of your game.  This question is part of what is known as the Big 3, "What is your game about?", "What do the characters do?" and "What do the players do?"  Similar to the Big 3 is the Power 19 [2], only the Power 19 are more detailed.  You don't have to answer some of these questions right away, some are meant to be answered as you work through your design.

There are a number of resources you can check out.  You may have noticed I've put a number of links to Troy's blog, Socratic Design, in my post so far.  That's a good place to check.  You can also find a few good links in the "Rules for the First Thoughts forum" thread at the top of the First Thoughts forum, specifically in this post (though you might browse the whole thread for other links).  Another site I've used is John Kim's site.  In particular, I found some of the info on his magic systems page to be quite interesting, though I'd encourage you to check the whole site out.  You can also download John Kirk's "Design Patterns of Successful Role-Playing Games" which can be found on John Kim's site.  Also, look around here.  Look around anywhere you can find.  There's info everywhere if you just do a little looking.

Anyway, I can't say much more until you respond to the above, but good luck with your game and company.  Happy reading through all the links I posted.

[greyorm]

Some things to think about:

1) You will never be a WotC, or even a White Wolf. EVERYONE thinks they will be. EVERYONE wants to be. But, realistically, you won't be. If your idea of "success" is a vision of being like any of these companies, you need to rethink what success in the gaming market actually means.

2a) Settings are a dime a dozen. I can crap out a new, interesting setting a night when necessary. There are books full of settings on the shelves already, and not just the RPG section: there are millions of fantasy and sci-fi novels, each with their own setting. Meaning everyone can (and does) write themselves new, interesting, detailed settings, so how is yours useful? Many modern, successful games sell only a system, or a system with a bare-bones setting.

2b) Systems are a dime a dozen. Everyone has one. The market is glutted with systems a gamer can use and play with, and many gamers are not interested in learning a new system in order to play in a setting that interests them. People will modify, convert, and hack settings they like into the system they like and use, so what does your system bring to the table. Many modern, successful companies just produce setting-enriching material for popular, existing systems.

2a and 2b are not mutually exclusive of each other.

And note that I said nothing about being unique or being imaginative with either system or setting. Unique and imaginative are also a dime a dozen.

Success is not dependent on having an awesome, unique, super new system, nor is it dependent on having a creative, new, detailed setting. Success is dependent on having a total game that "speaks to" a given subset of people, that provides them with something they are looking for (or promises to) that nothing else does in the same way, or that manages to ride the coattails of a popular trend (ala White Wolf and the pop explosion of goth culture...again, don't expect you'll be able to do this unless you are a marketing genius or lucky). Unfortunately, this means there is no magical mixture of what is important or what will sell; the market will decide on its own what it likes and what it was looking for, no matter what you want it to do.

On 1: really, you need to rethink it. What do you want out of your game? Is that achievable given the market? Compared to how things usually work in the market in question? Are you aware that most games on the market, regardless of production costs, advertising, and quality, sell no more than 500 copies during their lifetime? That sales of 100 books a year is considered "not bad"? Are you aware most professional game designers and writers are market professionals as a hobby, and have to work at other jobs make an actual a living? Meaning, are you prepared to work two jobs? Or OK with the idea your company can not and will not be an overnight success and will take years to grow into something that produces more than gas money in profits (if it ever does)?

[Callan S.]

Hi Seamus,

What is success? How would you define it for yourself, or atleast for this project?

[Luke]

Well, you are making a roleplaying game. It's important.

Also, what Callan S. said.

Also, if you're investing a considerable amount of money (and you're here asking us for advice), you're already in trouble. RPGs don't make a considerable return. In your wildest, most feverish fantasies, you might sell five thousand books. If your game is a solid success, you're going to fight the good fight and sell one thousand books. Most small press titles sell less than 350 copies.

Sorry for the game economics lesson.
-Luke

[Seamus]

Hi Seamus,

What is success? How would you define it for yourself, or atleast for this project?

I guess I have three tiers of success. The first is complete failure but the knowledge I took a risk starting my own company and learned a thing or two about the publishing industry. The Second is just making enough to keep a line of really cool RPG books going on the market. The Third, is to make enough profit to expand and be able to focus full time on publishing.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I guess I have three tiers of success. The first is complete failure but the knowledge I took a risk starting my own company and learned a thing or two about the publishing industry. The Second is just making enough to keep a line of really cool RPG books going on the market. The Third, is to make enough profit to expand and be able to focus full time on publishing.

What sort of publishing are you interested in learning, or is it anything and everything? (For instance, do you want to learn to do book design and layouts, do you want to meet people and develop contacts, or what.)
What is the market and what would you consider a product that is on the market? (For instance, would publishing pdf products be interesting or successful in your mind?)
What sort of life situation do you have, what would devoting yourself full time to publishing take for you? (This is a tricky question because it's all but impossible to support a comfortable middle-class family lifestyle with rpgs - but if you're willing to live the life of the starving artist, that's quite feasible.)

[Seamus]

I guess I have three tiers of success. The first is complete failure but the knowledge I took a risk starting my own company and learned a thing or two about the publishing industry. The Second is just making enough to keep a line of really cool RPG books going on the market. The Third, is to make enough profit to expand and be able to focus full time on publishing.

What sort of publishing are you interested in learning, or is it anything and everything? (For instance, do you want to learn to do book design and layouts, do you want to meet people and develop contacts, or what.)
What is the market and what would you consider a product that is on the market? (For instance, would publishing pdf products be interesting or successful in your mind?)
What sort of life situation do you have, what would devoting yourself full time to publishing take for you? (This is a tricky question because it's all but impossible to support a comfortable middle-class family lifestyle with rpgs - but if you're willing to live the life of the starving artist, that's quite feasible.)

I want to do layout, writing, develop contacts, manage the business. Eventually I would like to hire writers. I have a partner who is doing some of the lifting as well. I should say I used to work as an editor for a journal, so i know something about how publishing works. But want the experience of running a business and doing all that demands. And if I fall the first time out, I am okay with that.

It is hard for me to explain the product without giving too many details, and some bad experiences with publishers have in the past (I used to do freelance) have made me cagey about giving everything away). But that said, its a modern RPG for players who like carnage. There is much more to it than that. I have some additional areas of expertise that I am drawing on to make this a very well researched, but still playable game. I want to do print publishing. Have written PDFs for other companies, and its just not an area, I am interested in pursuing.

Thankfully I don't have kids, and me and my wife are content without them. We recenlty moved into a relatives house after she had a stroke. Slowly we are taking over her mortgage as she transitions into a one floor assisted living environment. The mortgage is so low, its half what I used to pay for my apartment. So basically, we are in a real easy going financial situation. Both of us work. But I am going to drop down to three nights a week so I can devote the remainder of my time to this publishing venture. If things go well, i will drop down to two nights. If they go really well, I will be doing this full time. Lifestyle isn't a big issue for me. I live a pretty spartan existence.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Fine answers about your goals. We can talk more about your game and whether you should worry about it being stolen as well if you're interested... actually, I'll just give you a link, I apparently wrote a fine rant about it a couple of years ago here.

Anyway, about the original question, I agree with Whiteknife: system is the major determinant of a game's success in the long term for the great majority of games. Unless your setting is Glorantha (and how many of them are?), then most of your audience will not want a setting so much as they want rules.

[Seamus]

Fine answers about your goals. We can talk more about your game and whether you should worry about it being stolen as well if you're interested... actually, I'll just give you a link, I apparently wrote a fine rant about it a couple of years ago here.

Anyway, about the original question, I agree with Whiteknife: system is the major determinant of a game's success in the long term for the great majority of games. Unless your setting is Glorantha (and how many of them are?), then most of your audience will not want a setting so much as they want rules.

I am sorry if I came of too defensive. The problem with this concept though is it is highly novel, and one of those things where being the first person to publish the concept could make a big difference. I have many other game ideas I would be happy to share. I just learned from my freelance days, that novel concepts are the ones people are most likely to lift. So I usually keep these ones to myself until I am absolutely finished with the design process.

[Eero Tuovinen]

That's quite alright, it's your call. If you end up needing feedback on your design, you may consider simply asking interesting-seeming people for some private studio critique. No reason to do it in public if you don't want to.

[Seamus]

That's quite alright, it's your call. If you end up needing feedback on your design, you may consider simply asking interesting-seeming people for some private studio critique. No reason to do it in public if you don't want to.

Thanks.

[Callan S.]

I guess I have three tiers of success. The first is complete failure but the knowledge I took a risk starting my own company and learned a thing or two about the publishing industry. The Second is just making enough to keep a line of really cool RPG books going on the market. The Third, is to make enough profit to expand and be able to focus full time on publishing.

Right! But I'm thinking if it's already a cool RPG, it's going to sell. Or it wont sell because the market doesn't appreciate it's coolness, or the market that would appreciate it's coolness hasn't had it distributed to it.

In other words, if it's already cool, there's no system fiddling that can change it's success, now. I would say, anyway! Good luck!