A Question about Armor

[Sneaky Git]

I was looking at the character creation process as modeled in the revised printing of TROS.. and came across something that I'd like clarified:

Vhord von Drieder, our intrepid Stahlnish knight-errant, is kitted out in full mail and a plate cuirass.  I would assume that this would give him an AV of 10 for those locations protected by both.  Yet, the model character sheet only gives him an AV of 6..

Is this simply a mistake?  Or have I misunderstood the rules concerning armor?

[Jake Norwood]

I was looking at the character creation process as modeled in the revised printing of TROS.. and came across something that I'd like clarified:

Vhord von Drieder, our intrepid Stahlnish knight-errant, is kitted out in full mail and a plate cuirass.  I would assume that this would give him an AV of 10 for those locations protected by both.  Yet, the model character sheet only gives him an AV of 6..

Is this simply a mistake?  Or have I misunderstood the rules concerning armor?

Armor doesn't compound. You keep the highest value over any particular area.

Jake

[ShaneNINE]

Armor doesn't compound.

?!?!

Er... why not? That doesn't make much sense.

[Mokkurkalfe]

It might be so that a blow strong enough to go trough plate will just fly through the chain as well.

[Sneaky Git]

It might be so that a blow strong enough to go trough plate will just fly through the chain as well.

That seems a little counter-intuitive.  Then again, this could just be another shining example of that wonderful American belief in "more is better!"

[Jake Norwood]

There isn't actually chain under the plate. Even if there was, though, the major advantage of armor isn't it's absorption qualities, but rather its ability to deflect and disperse damage. How can chain underneath plate do that?

Jake

[ShaneNINE]

I don't know the physics of how it does, but it does! Plate + chain is definitely more protective than just chain by itself. If armor under plate isn't helpful at all why did anyone bother adding metal plates to armor like with scale armor or "plate and maille"?

[ShaneNINE]

It might be so that a blow strong enough to go trough plate will just fly through the chain as well.

Do you really think so? If I'm going to hit you with a baseball bat and I give you a gambeson, a chain shirt, and a breast plate, are you going to leave the breast plate sitting there and face the bat with just the quilt and mail or are you going to put it all on?

[Jake Norwood]

I don't know the physics of how it does, but it does! Plate + chain is definitely more protective than just chain by itself. If armor under plate isn't helpful at all why did anyone bother adding metal plates to armor like with scale armor or "plate and maille"?

As far as I understand it, plate and maille refers either to:

1) Many metal plates with chain between them
2) partial harness with chain over the non-plate areas

I have never seen authentic plate harness with chain underneath. Ever. And I've done my homework.

I'm not saying it didn't exist--but I am saying that it wasn't useful enough to make a broad appearance. Check out any non-RPG sources on armor, especially ones written by academics or martial artists. It simply isn't practical. I'm not saying that it doesn't provide more protection--of course it does--but plate was so reliable on its own that chain simply covered the gaps, not support it from beneath.

Check it out.

Jake

ps. If you really want to do it anyway, keep the whole CP penalties from both, and increase the AV by 2 in the doubled-up areas.

Jake

[Mokkurkalfe]

I hope there is a BIG section about armor in tFoB.
And that they are listed in the way you buy them(no "one metal shoulder cup: 15s"). And nice descriptions. And pictures.

[Durgil]

There is a HarnMaster/RoleMaster site by Klaus Æ. Mogensen that backs up what Jake is saying about multiple layers of armour at http://hjem.get2net.dk/Klaudius/Harn1.htm, at least with regards to protection from impact forces.  Basically, the protective value of multiple layers is actually computed by taking the square root of the sum of the squares.  If you use this method with the previous example you come up with 7 or 8 depending on whether you use normal rounding rules or not (6^2+4^2)^1/2=~7.75.  I know that this is true from a physics standpoint when dealing with a force.  The only thing cumulative about multiple layers is if you were trying to figure damage done by an edge or point impact.  In other words the protection from the force of the blow (or a compressive force i.e. a bear hug) is actually figured by figuring the square root of the sum of the squares, and the damage done by the point or edge of a weapon is figured cumulatively.

[Durgil]

That last post reminds me, can we expect to see any optional rules on armour and weapon damage?  I have always heard that shields, in particular, never lasted long in heavy combat.

[Lance D. Allen]

That last post reminds me, can we expect to see any optional rules on armour and weapon damage? I have always heard that shields, in particular, never lasted long in heavy combat.

::grins:: Yeah, with the current rules as they are, TRoS suffers what might be called the "SCA Effect" when it comes to shields. Sword and shield is an awesome combination, but if you can't batter through that shield eventually, it takes on godlike proportions. Imagine this situation...

Master Greatsworder attacks Mook With Shield. Mook With Shield blocks with everything he's got, and Master Greatsworder is unable to break through. MWS wins initiative, but has no way to attack, so MG attacks again. MWS takes it on the shield, and reduces damage to nill. Pools refresh. MG attacks full out, only holding back a couple dice. MWS blocks with all but a few, but due to the ease of blocking, defends successfully, taking init. MWS attacks, but is unable to break through the desperate defense of MG, though he keeps the init. MWS attacks conservatively, and MG swats it away with his superior CP, gaining init. MG attack ferociously.. and MWS blocks, yet again. Current tally: Shield has taken 4 hits with a GREATSWORD, but still seems, due to the "SCA Effect" to be fine. MG eventually gives up because all out attack will leave him defenseless, and so long as MWS is conservative, it could be a stalemate forever.

Mind, a real-life fight with the SCA-Effect on shields might not actually happen that way, nor a real-TRoS fight, but it very well could.

[Sneaky Git]

That last post reminds me, can we expect to see any optional rules on armour and weapon damage?  I have always heard that shields, in particular, never lasted long in heavy combat.

Speaking about weapon damage.. the rules for half-swording (p62) claim that "the Attack Target Number (ATN) when half-swording is 5, and the Defending Target Number (DTN) is 6."

Are these values for every weapon with which you may use this maneuver (Bastard, Long, and Great Swords.. and the Doppelhander), regardless of the variances in initial values?

And what about Poleaxes?  Although "techniques similar to the 'half-sword' allow many close-combat possibilities" (p254), the poleaxe proficiency does not explicitly allow for such maneuvers.  Does this mean poleaxes do not get the improved ATN & DTN?  Nor the shortened engagement range?

[OllyG]

mail armour is made as thick as possible within the constraint of weight.  So is plate.  If I combine a suit of each I get armour which is far too heavy to wear.
Why would I have armour that is only half as heavy as I can comfortably wear?  Just to be able to wear 2 suits?  No.
Combining 2 full suits of armour would never work.
Plate and Chain is less advandced plate.  Instead of articulated joints it has bits of mail dangling over your joints and at any areas not covered by plate.
Full plate is made of thick metal plates covering everything.  Any thicker and it would be too heavy to fight effectively.