questions

[jgbrowning]

I've been lurking here for a long time and im finally thinking of getting into the publishing business.  i got 6,000 that i can spend and still have 2000 in operating capital so i think i can do what i have planned, but i wanted to get some information from you guys if i could.

i'm not sure how distribution works.  if i print out 2000 copies what do i need to do to sell them to distributors?  will they buy 2000 copies at once? (i dont think so  :)  )  how much could i reasonably expect a distrib to pick up, considering i dont have a name.  Im concerned about storage space.  What do you all think about sell sheets and do you write your own copy for distribs to put in their product magizines?

my product would sell for around 15$ if that information is important

other simple questions im sure ya'll know the answers too.

where can i get a program to turn ISBN's into bar codes?  I've seen several places where they'll do it for me for 25$, but i'd prefer to do it myself.

would you reccommend sending complimentary copies to retailers to generate buzz and would doing so grab some shelf space right away?

must i have a web site? honestly i would prefer to not mess with it, but hell, it seems like you have to have one now...

What do you guys think of wizards attic?  its is a "must do" for a brand new startup?

and lastly (sorry this is so long, but lottsa questions) are there printers you have worked with you would reccomend for 64page perfectbound book, and distrib's youve worked with that treat you well?

thank you very much for your responses

joe b.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Joe,

I don't know much, but I can talk:

would you reccommend sending complimentary copies to retailers to generate buzz and would doing so grab some shelf space right away?

Fang might have some insight to offer on this, but my thinking is, no. They'll end up going home in the hands of employees who couldn't rep a product effectively if their career aspirations depended on it. The only impact they'll have on the success of your product will be negative impact, in that you'll have to sell even more copies to make up for the money you lost on the ones you sent out.

where can i get a program to turn ISBN's into bar codes? I've seen several places where they'll do it for me for 25$, but i'd prefer to do it myself.

This site will generate an EPS file of a barcode for free:

http://www.cgpp.com/bookland/isbn.html

Paul

[jgbrowning]

thanks for the response.  i guess i'll reconsider the hand outs..  :(


joe b.

[Le Joueur]

would you reccommend sending complimentary copies to retailers to generate buzz and would doing so grab some shelf space right away?

Fang might have some insight to offer on this,

Me?  I haven't printed or published anything.  All I have is six years 'working in the pits' at a Gaming/Comics/Collectibles store chain (with a solid glass ceiling for pagans I might add.)

<DRAWL>I ain't never seen anything like a complimintery copy a nothin'</DRAWL>.  Really.  I haven't.  most of the 'multi' distributors¹ occassionally sent these 'goodie bags,' but they never had actual product in them.  Paul's right though, even that tended to disappear with the employees <DRAWL>right fast</DRAWL>.

where can i get a program to turn ISBN's into bar codes? I've seen several places where they'll do it for me for 25$, but i'd prefer to do it myself.

Woah!  Those barcodes you see on books have nothing to do with the International Standard Book Number.  A bar code, or Universal Product Code (UPC), is a registered mark with I forget who.  Basically, you pay to have one and they put your product and it's pricing information in their database and this is burnt to CDs which are sent out to retailers who have optical scanners for those bar codes.  While the information on the UPC CD will include your ISBN, they are not one and the same thing.

An ISBN is another code number you have to register for and because its international, it costs a whole lot more (usually).  Be careful where you get your UPC, there are a lot of havey-cavey agents out there looking to fleece the unsuspecting.  One way a legitimate company can bring down the cost of a UPC is by doing it for lots of people's products, then they register the numbers in bulk for savings.

However...(you knew there'd be one of those right?) the whole range of UPC codes was used up a long time ago (they only code twelve decimals; a total of 10,000,000 products - a mere drop in the bucket) so a lot of companies are switching to quasi proprietary systems to differentiate their products.  (Ever notice candy can have really short bar codes?)  Well, some companies have taken to 'reusing' bar codes.

Take Palladium products for example.  They use a modified twenty-one digit bar code, except the 'extra five' are actually the price.  I have two here beside me, ISBN 0-916211-54-1 (bar code 780916211547 51495 - $14.95 SRP) and 0-916211-50-9 (780916211509 52495 - $24.95 SRP); notice the ISBN has nothing to do with the UPC?  I'm pretty sure Palladium is trying to get into 'the larger market' so they are probably using 'real UPCs.'  Steve Jackson Games on the other hand doesn't seem to be; the last six digits on their bar codes contain their four digit product number.  Either they have bought a whole sequence of UPCs or their aren't registered (and won't work on a regular optical scanner).

I'm pretty sure I could fake a bar code that would translate any twelve digit number into the code (I have a source that translates them and I'm into codes and stuff), but you couldn't put it through any optical scanner because the number wouldn't be registered and would indicate some other product.  And I could do it for a lot less than $25.  I don't believe that the $25 will get you a UPC, just a bar code for whatever that's worth.

And really, what do you want a ISBN or UPC for?  Going to distribute with Barnes and Nobles?  Through Kmart maybe?  Unless you can guarantee sales through major venues that optically scan all the sales, a 'real UPC' probably isn't worth the money.  Likewise buying an ISBN is only about as good as getting listed in Books in Print internationally; are any of your potential customers really going to hit the pavement hunting yours down by number alone?  At a print run of 2000, I don't think that's necessary either.  Amazon.com and bn.com list tons and tons of books that don't have ISBNs.  It doesn't really 'legitimize' your product the way that the people advertizing the codes and numbers say it does, at least not much more than getting it back from the printer.

If you really want to spend as much money as it takes to get an ISBN or a UPC, you'd be better off hiring a web designer and doing direct sales.  I don't think there are any distributors who'll turn you away for not having either.

Fang Langford

p. s. This is an unsolicited opinion, and might be wrong, so take it for as much value as you paid for it.

¹ Like Diamond or so (are they still in it?) they carry cards, comics, games, and so on, and so on.

[jgbrowning]

Sometimes i have to marvel at the wonder that is the internet.  Thanks for your information and i'll do some checking just to make sure i dont shot myself in the foot.

the reason i posted here was to get information so that i wouldn't have to learn all this the hard, and frustrating way.

thanks a lot,

joe b.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Fang,

Woah! Those barcodes you see on books have nothing to do with the International Standard Book Number. A bar code, or Universal Product Code (UPC), is a registered mark with I forget who. Basically, you pay to have one and they put your product and it's pricing information in their database and this is burnt to CDs which are sent out to retailers who have optical scanners for those bar codes. While the information on the UPC CD will include your ISBN, they are not one and the same thing.

Check out the link I pasted to Joe. There are instructions on the page that seem to indicate that bar codes are nothing more than the ISBN plus pricing information, run through an algorithm.

Paul

[Le Joueur]

Check out the link I pasted to Joe. There are instructions on the page that seem to indicate that bar codes are nothing more than the ISBN plus pricing information, run through an algorithm.

So?  Like I said, I can do the same by hand.  A bar code is not a UPC.  Do you think groceries have ISBNs?  They've got UPCs.  UPCs are registered and coded to a database that gets distributed to retailers who use optical scanners to register products for sale.

The point still remains; what good is a ISBN bar code in this case?  Has the ISBN been gotten yet?  As I remember, their price is nothing to sneeze at.

Let's say he's got the ISBN; what will a bar code of it do?  It won't work like a UPC; provided you can find an optical scanner that is wired to a computer that has Books in Print loaded, you could scan the book and get the publishing information.  But if you've got the book to scan, that's pretty redundant.  (From my experience building the systems they use in Office Depot and Barnes and Nobles, they don't put the Books in Print computer with the optical scanner.)

I mean it looks really cool to have a bar code on your product, but shouldn't it do more than just decorate?  Bar codes are for optical scanners, cash registers often use optical scanners to price and register sales.  An ISBN bar code will be more than useless in that situation; it takes a UPC.  And that's a completely separate number from the ISBN.

What I'm really interested in is how or why the idea of bar coding the ISBN came up in the first place.  Let's here from the author; why did you originally want the ISBN bar coded?

Fang Langford

[Le Joueur]

I did a little checking.  The only pricing I could find was 10 ISBNs for $225.  Apparently it isn't even necessary to get into Books in Print.  When extended out to the full twenty-one digits, it can be used on many optical scanner registers.

Still, I wonder why go to the expense?  A lack of interest in an internet presence questions the need to go for 'the whole package.'  (Is this something necessary for a print run of 2000?)  So I let the question stand;

What does an ISBN do for the product?

Fang Langford

[jgbrowning]

actually it was pure herd mentality.  every book i've seen had one, i just assumed i needed one.

a perfect example of how when you assume you make an ass out of Ume.  poor norwegian slob... :)

joe b.

edit: one day i'll be able to write right

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for dropping by the Forge, and I hope we can help you out. Here are some of my takes on your inquiries, but be sure to cross-reference them with stuff that other people say too.

Before getting into your questions, I must ask you some of my own.
Why publish at all? Are you really personally invested in "getting your game out there"? If so, consider free distribution on the internet. Putting out a print product is a business decision, and I can't over-stress that you must be a business in order for it to be anything but a nightmare. Are you really interested in becoming a business? If so, why?

i'm not sure how distribution works.

Heh. You and everyone else, including the distributors. In the traditional system, you actually sell your books to the distributors (Alliance is the main national one; many regional others exist like Black Hawk, Lion Rampant, Centurion, Georgia Music, Esdevium in Great Britain, and so on). They sell your book to the retailers, who, oddly enough, generate their demand and interest largely from the distributors' promotional catalogues. This system has some advantages and many disadvantages, mainly because title is transferred at each step.

Without going into gruesome detail, some fundamental issues about this "three-tier" system include:

- buyback (can the retailer return a non-seller to the distributor? Can the distributor return it to the manufacturer? Full money refund, or partial? What time limit is involved?);
- discount (how much % of the suggested retail price does the distributor pay the publisher? How much % does the retailer pay the distributor? Are there bulk deals? Combined-title deals?)

Anyway, this is obviously a terrible quagmire to enter all alone. You need representation and fulfilment services. Agents to provide these services are crucial, and although they aren't killingly expensive, they aren't free either.

my product would sell for around 15$ if that information is important

This is mighty relevant, actually. Consider the points made in these Publishing forum threads:

Conflict across the tiers
Pricing

[I apologize for not providing the links. PHP service is very slow this morning, as people have probably noticed.]

You'll see that the games-publisher has a choice: go real cheap, wowing the consumer with the excellent production value they're getting for so little; or go real expensive, wowing the retailer with the excellent profit margin they're making for each sale. Compromises between these priorities abound - there doesn't seem to be any one, perfect, good compromise at all, so you have to generate your own, that suits your needs and your goals of publication.

Those goals are a big deal. You must decide whether you want to "make a killing," i.e., pump a big sales spike into existence to cover your print costs and profit from it, then basically ignore the game's existence after that except for superficial splat-books; or to sustain a game over the long-term, which is a trickier prospect.

where can i get a program to turn ISBN's into bar codes? I've seen several places where they'll do it for me for 25$, but i'd prefer to do it myself.

My answer to this one includes a response to Fang's point above. The first concept is that game-store retailers are currently on a kick about bar codes. Even though they usually put their own bar-code sticker on the book, they are annoyed or scared if they don't see one on there already. Go figure. Every few years, another "requirement" like this is popular or established - before this one, it was the Index. Never mind the merits or lack thereof of having an index; nowadays, if you don't have one, "you suck" from the retailers' standpoint. So, for purely practical reasons, I recommend having a bar-code on the book.

Yes, you need to purchase the ISBNs, but this is actually not too pricey. The barcode should not cost you a dime. In my experience, the EPS provided by Paul's link is adequate for that purpose, and when it wasn't, the printer was happy to generate the barcode for me and pop it onto the cover image. (You might want to bring that up during printer-bid negotiations; more on that later).

would you reccommend sending complimentary copies to retailers to generate buzz and would doing so grab some shelf space right away?

This is way, way further than you need to be thinking right now. The first issue is whether your game is any damn good, and whether other people besides friends and family think so too. The second is whether you want to publish it as a book at all (As I asked above). The third is what sort of economic model you will consider "successful." And finally, fourth is the format and the means of promotion and fulfilment. Complimentary copies to retailers is way down there in sixth or seventh place, and your tactics about that will depend on your approach to the earlier issues.

must i have a web site? honestly i would prefer to not mess with it, but hell, it seems like you have to have one now...

Oh yeah. Stores on their own will not supply you with success of any kind. At most, they will contribute in part to your success (and that is far from guaranteed). Your website operates as your fanzine for the game, and I highly recommend getting interactive, engaging, and valuable material on there.

What do you guys think of wizards attic? its is a "must do" for a brand new startup?

There is no "must do." No one knows what "works" any more. Nothing may work; the only thing I can say for sure is that representing your own game to the distributors is almost certainly not a valid option. You're going to have to choose a service for this purpose based on your own needs and judgments. I strongly recommend comparing Wizard's Attic, Sphinx Group, and Tundra Sales Organization, as well as any other services or agents they recommend. (With any luck, new folks are cropping up in this category as we speak; see this thread for more details.)

are there printers you have worked with you would reccomend for 64page perfectbound book, and distrib's youve worked with that treat you well?

OK, printers. The first thing to understand is that printers' deals change over time - they are always relative to their current work load and resources. So you can't find "the" printer; you have to find the one that is best for you at this very moment (which is why you have to delay this step until you really have a game that's ready to be printed). The way you do that is to bid, which fortunately is easy. Head to the Wizard's Attic site and get their list of printers from there. Now call'em all up, describe your project, and ask them regarding their prices. You should provide more than one copy-count value - say, 1000, 1500, 2000, or something like that, to get three answers. The printers will do this for free, as well as tell you how long it will take.

So how do you choose a printer from the bids? I suggest using the second-lowest bid, but this is a personal rule on my part. You should also consider how well the various people treated you, how quickly they returned their estimate, and certain details like (a) who pays for print-overruns and (b) whether they will accept corrections during the process. Oh, and do not use printers who cannot accept PDF files by email or on CD.

[Side note: do not be seduced by the fact that higher print runs (more copies) are cheaper to print per copy. People end up with many thousands of copies of useless paper in their basements this way. And in debt.]

Now for distributors. The answer to your question is "Any and all of them." You must get carried by as many as possible, and maintain a relationship with them that I call "walking." Don't get them to deep-order and think that you're all done. Instead, have them order a fairly small number and keep rolling new books into their warehouses as those turn over to the retailers. This is a lot of work, and most distributors fail to see the need to maintain this relationship with small publishers. That's why an agent is so necessary.

Anyway, there are lots more things to talk about, but I think the first step is for people who've published games, besides me, to weigh in on some of the issues I've brought up, and then we can all work from whatever synthesizes.

Best,
Ron

[jgbrowning]

thanks for your information.  

well.. its a lot to consider   :)

joe b.

[Misguided Games]

Le Joueur,

You are spreading misinformation here.  If the product in question is a BOOK intended to be sold through bookstores, then an ISBN is of more use than a UPC.  Let me see...I have Nyambe, SAS, Exalted, D&D3E, Spycraft etc. all right next to me...every last one has an EAN bar code, which is based on an ISBN number.  Not ONE has a UPC code.
I suggest the following link for more info.  I have also used this company to produce barcodes.

http://www.fotel.com/resources/faqs/bkean.htm

Check out the link I pasted to Joe. There are instructions on the page that seem to indicate that bar codes are nothing more than the ISBN plus pricing information, run through an algorithm.

So?  Like I said, I can do the same by hand.  A bar code is not a UPC.  Do you think groceries have ISBNs?  They've got UPCs.  UPCs are registered and coded to a database that gets distributed to retailers who use optical scanners to register products for sale.

The point still remains; what good is a ISBN bar code in this case?  Has the ISBN been gotten yet?  As I remember, their price is nothing to sneeze at.

Let's say he's got the ISBN; what will a bar code of it do?  It won't work like a UPC; provided you can find an optical scanner that is wired to a computer that has Books in Print loaded, you could scan the book and get the publishing information.  But if you've got the book to scan, that's pretty redundant.  (From my experience building the systems they use in Office Depot and Barnes and Nobles, they don't put the Books in Print computer with the optical scanner.)

I mean it looks really cool to have a bar code on your product, but shouldn't it do more than just decorate?  Bar codes are for optical scanners, cash registers often use optical scanners to price and register sales.  An ISBN bar code will be more than useless in that situation; it takes a UPC.  And that's a completely separate number from the ISBN.

What I'm really interested in is how or why the idea of bar coding the ISBN came up in the first place.  Let's here from the author; why did you originally want the ISBN bar coded?

Fang Langford

[Le Joueur]

You are spreading misinformation here.

You're right and I apologize.  There is still a small, but potentially costly, distinction to make.

If the product in question is a BOOK intended to be sold through bookstores, then an ISBN is of more use than a UPC.  Let me see...I have Nyambe, SAS, Exalted, D&D3E, Spycraft etc. all right next to me...every last one has an EAN bar code, which is based on an ISBN number.  Not ONE has a UPC code.

There are actually people who will sell you 'just a bar code' misrepresenting (lying by omission) them as EAN bar codes (which include ISBN information) on the hopes that their 'pigeon' doesn't know the difference between any old number encoded in a bar code, an EAN bar code, and a UPC.  I was mostly worried that the questioner might have run afoul of one of them with what sounded like "herd mentality."

And there wasn't (at the time) an answer to my fundamental question (kudos to Ron for answering it):

The point still remains; what good is a ISBN bar code in this case?

Fang Langford

[jgbrowning]

thanks for the info, but times change.  I wont be publishing now.  :(

had to loan a family member 15k.  *sigh*

oh well, i guess the times just wasnt right, but i'll keep working.. thanks again for all your help

joe b.

[Demonspahn]

Hi Joe,

Don't surrender so quickly.  If you already have the product,  you could always market some version of it as a PDF at minimal cost.  That's what this thread was about :

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3228

And there are other places like RPGnet Mall as well.  At the very least doing so might give an indication of how well the product will be received _before_ you drop thousands of dollars into paper publishing.  

Hope that helps.

Pete
---who didn't do that and now has a book/game that few people have even heard of and even fewer have bought.  :)