shield walls idea

[Thirsty Viking]

For a long time in earth's history, lefties were forced to train with their right hands until they were more right-handed than left-handed.

With one notable exception:

Judges 20:16:  "Among this army were seven hundred specially-trained left-handed soldiers.  Each one could sling a stone and hit even the smallest target." (from the netbible)

-Mark

Very nice quote call.

[svenlein]

So...

Does anyone have any other ideas for how to handle shield walls, other than what I said at the beginning.

I'm looking for actual rules not just wishes for what a rule should contain.

Thanks,

Scott

[Mokkurkalfe]

I'd say you get complete passive protection from the upper legs up to the chest from the shields. This, with some greaves and a helmet will give a very good protection indeed(hoplite armor?).
A Battle skill check of some kind might give you extra dice as well.
Keeping formation would be a terrain roll/TN Battle(the skill). If you fail, you lose the passive protection of your friends' shields. Some goes for your foes and neighbors. This will force you to alot dice to keep formation, lest your opponent will find an opening and you will probably be attacked by at least two enemies. Of course, there is no chance to maneuver in a shield wall.

BTW, something I'd like to see is a way to position your shield. Like if I have a chainmail hauberk but for some reason no helm, I want to protect my head with the shield. Something like DTN-1 against ZONE IV, VI and XIII and DTN+1 against all the other zones. It would also make the Bind&strike and Beat maneuvers even more interesting.

[Thirsty Viking]

the problem comes that it would be +1 DTN  against torso +2DTN against legs  maybe even +3DTN against lower legs.  It would also be more susceptible to being bypassed udnerneath at a strike for the head...   not to mention -CP dice if it is impeding vision as a standard placement.

Net result is i think it generally a bad idea. and except for that roman tortise formation...   why it wasn't used...   Unless you were being rained on by missles

[Valamir]

And left handed...what is left handed.  The whole concept is simply a matter of weak willed parents allowing their children to grow up using the wrong hand without correcting them ;-)

An interesting thought,  but an unprovable one.  This early training may have been at the expense of thier unltimate agility level.   An interesting trade off.   Right handed at less agility, or left handed at thier genetic agility.

Argue all you want... it is rather unprovable, and a perfect game mechanic answer in our world where the masses don't take identical training for a good baseline.  Maybe if i'd been allowed to be a lefty, my hand writting would have been legible?

Hense the ;-)
It was meant to be taken as a light harded jab at lefties.

Regarding the Judges quote...you will note that the entire unit was uniformly like handed...which is really the point.  You can't mix handedness on the battle line, it just mechanically won't work.

Since right handedness is alot more common than left, it makes sense that all warriors in the shield wall would fight right handed regardless of prediliction.

Also, keep in mind that most of these folks would not be literate, nor engage in regular organized sports involving throwing, so there is little sense of "i'm more comfortable writing or throwing left handed".  You'd put the sword in whatever hand you were told to put the sword in, whether by your father, or a medieval drill sarjeant.

What is an interesting speculation from the quote, however, is why the author felt the need to point out that they were left handed.  Was it simply a matter of demonstration and ostentation.  "We are so rich and powerful we can waste our time training to be left handed just for the prestige of being unique".  Or was there perhaps some left handed advangtage with a sling against a shielded target akin to the the advantage of a left handed pitcher vs a batter?

[Spartan]

What is an interesting speculation from the quote, however, is why the author felt the need to point out that they were left handed.  Was it simply a matter of demonstration and ostentation.  "We are so rich and powerful we can waste our time training to be left handed just for the prestige of being unique".  Or was there perhaps some left handed advangtage with a sling against a shielded target akin to the the advantage of a left handed pitcher vs a batter?

I was wondering that myself.  My best guess is that these left-handed troops were trained to fight right-handed ones in hand-to-hand, thus throwing their enemies into confusion (it doesn't say they used the sling exclusively).  If all your training assumes your enemies to be the same handedness as you, then when faced with the opposite you might not react as well.  I've heard the same applies in some team sports as well.  I wouldn't know.  As for using a sling left-handed, I haven't a clue if it's advantageous, but your theory makes sense, Valamir.

I've also heard that castle staircases were constructed as to inconvenience right-handed swordsmen advancing from below.  A left-handed unit would have been handy in that situation.

There doesn't appear to be any stigma attached to left-handedness in the Old Testament, FWIW.  In the same book (Judges), Ehud, a hero who ended up ruling Israel for a time was known to be left-handed.

I've also heard that Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great were lefties, as well, but I have no hard evidence.  Charlie Chaplain and Marilyn Monroe were, and that's what really counts! ;)

-Mark (sorry for the thread hijack)

[Brian Leybourne]

I was wondering that myself.  My best guess is that these left-handed troops were trained to fight right-handed ones in hand-to-hand, thus throwing their enemies into confusion (it doesn't say they used the sling exclusively).  If all your training assumes your enemies to be the same handedness as you, then when faced with the opposite you might not react as well.  I've heard the same applies in some team sports as well.  I wouldn't know.

Well, I certainly don't claim to be the expert Jake (and some of the other posters on here) is/are, but from my fencing days I can tell you that Left handed opponents are a bloody pain - all the attacks are coming from a slightly different direction and all the targets are slightly off what you're used to.

I would say that being able to fight southpaw would be a fairly hefty advantage in combat, easy worth +1CP against opponents who are not expecting it and/or have not encountered it before and don't know how to handle it.

Brian.

[Thirsty Viking]

Also, keep in mind that most of these folks would not be literate, nor engage in regular organized sports involving throwing, so there is little sense of "i'm more comfortable writing or throwing left handed".  You'd put the sword in whatever hand you were told to put the sword in, whether by your father, or a medieval drill sarjeant.

Ah but things like eating,  hunting with slings as a shepard boy, even throwing rocks,  whatever would still be taken on as a lefty developing base dexterity with the left-handed orientation.   I think most like is that Lefties would typically be excluded from training.  Derided as unsuitable (socially outcast)...  unless they were extrodinarily dedicated or ambidextrous.  
It is easy to imagine them to be given runner duties and other support activities unless the were able to quickly over come thier handedness.

What is an interesting speculation from the quote, however, is why the author felt the need to point out that they were left handed.  Was it simply a matter of demonstration and ostentation.  "We are so rich and powerful we can waste our time training to be left handed just for the prestige of being unique".  Or was there perhaps some left handed advangtage with a sling against a shielded target akin to the the advantage of a left handed pitcher vs a batter?

Notice they were a unit of slingers....  most likely they had most of thier skill when they joined and given little other training.   Sounds more like they assembled thier own unit out of patriotism...   ssince they weren't allowed in other units they probably worked extra hard to prove themselves....   a paralell example might be the Tuskegee airmen of WWII.  If this was the case,  they may have been the best slingers in the army...  and thus marveled at because they were also lefties.  It's not that being a lefty made them better....    it's that the social side effects of being outcast,  and not allowed in other units made them work harder and demand more of each other than any other unit.  To a lesser extent this was what made the spartans so good in ancient greece,  and how we train elite units today.   Seperation/indoctrination/High Standards

[Spartan]

Notice they were a unit of slingers....  most likely they had most of thier skill when they joined and given little other training.   Sounds more like they assembled thier own unit out of patriotism...   ssince they weren't allowed in other units they probably worked extra hard to prove themselves....

However, what do we know about ancient Israelite military strategy in their "tribal" period?  Did they fight in tightly disciplined units or was it more of a free-for-all?  I really have no idea. *shrug*  Interesting idea, T-V... I'm gonna have to research this!

-Mark

[Jake Norwood]

Just wanted to pop in and say that this is a fascinating thread.

Cool.

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

However, what do we know about ancient Israelite military strategy in their "tribal" period?  Did they fight in tightly disciplined units or was it more of a free-for-all?  I really have no idea. *shrug*  Interesting idea, T-V... I'm gonna have to research this!

-Mark

Admittedly i don't know too much.   I do know that if you accept the numbers given in the bible as fairly accurate from a historical point of view...   they had armies of some size.  We also know from history that the niegboring armies and empires marched back and forth through that area.  To stand up to them and maintain borders requires more than just desert guerilla fighters IMO.

Without any history to back me,  I think its safe to assume that many of them fought in units as disciplined as say a british spear levy.  From that section of judges there were 26,000 swordsmen, and 700 lefthanded slingers "who could sling a stone at a hair and not miss" described as chosen men.   Since they were the only ones not wielding swords.. we can assume that they were slingers because they couldn't meld as well in the sword formations.  And all the sword formations were righties.  Even if they weren't close order formation fighters...  a lefty next to a righty needs more room or leaves a gap between them awkwardly attacked if shield to shield.   In war small differences often mean life and death.

on a side note..   what are percentages of right to left in general population...  is 2.5% close?  this would be thier numbers in this battle.  Hmm found a FAQ from alt.lefthanders says that most studies indicate 13% lefties

Q03. What percentage of the population is left handed?

There have been many different numbers put forth, with the most common numbers we have seen being in the area of 13 percent. However, we have seen numbers as high as 30 percent, when you allow a
very loose definition of left-handedness.

so i guess I can't say there were no lefty swordsmen in the 26000.  or maybe they were lefties fighg righty...  the world may never know.   lol

[Mokkurkalfe]

the problem comes that it would be +1 DTN  against torso +2DTN against legs  maybe even +3DTN against lower legs.  It would also be more susceptible to being bypassed udnerneath at a strike for the head...   not to mention -CP dice if it is impeding vision as a standard placement.

Net result is i think it generally a bad idea. and except for that roman tortise formation...   why it wasn't used...   Unless you were being rained on by missles

I didn't  necessarily mean holding your shield-arm at nose height.
Basically, if my opponents only way to injure me is to the head, then I want to protect my head. One way would be to rise my shield slightly, or just be more prepared to block my head than anything else. Something!

[Jake Norwood]

Bringing ol' mister Silver in here, he makes several references to people who fight Left instead of right, as do many German masters. So it did happen, we know.

As for my own experience with left-handers, when dealing with a two-handed weapon such as a longsword or a staff, the difference is minor and while worth notice, not big enough to be worth dice to a trained man. On the other hand, fighting a lefty who's got a short sword or C&T is a pain in the rear, as my entire perception of range (a bloody important thing in swordplay) is thrown off. I suppose that I could train around it (and if I was ever planning to fight to the death I would), but in my current state, a left hander has a slight advantage.

I might add that a lefty fighting a lefty has the same disadvantage as a righty fighting a lefty does, because the disadvantage is rooted in what we're comfortable with and accostomed to fighting.

Jake

[Spartan]

[on a side note..   what are percentages of right to left in general population...  is 2.5% close?  this would be thier numbers in this battle.  Hmm found a FAQ from alt.lefthanders says that most studies indicate 13% lefties

The safe estimate is generally considered to be 10%, give or take.  My preliminary research indicates that this ratio has remained the same throughout history.  Apparently archaeological digs have reveal that (due to tool design) a similar ratio in pre-history.

My Scriptural delvings have revealed that the tribe of Benjamin was noted for its left-handed and ambidextrous warriors.  Both uses of the word "left-handed", and all the references to ambidexterity that I have found are used to describe people of that tribe.  It may have been a cultural tradition for them to have left-handed warriors.  This over a period of a couple hundred years, as well.  Even King Saul had a unit of ambidextrous slingers/archers from that tribe, and Saul was himself a Benjamite.

Perhaps left-handed slingers became associted with Benjamin in a similar fashion that the longbowman became associated with England.  I would like to know if the Benjamites had units of left-handed swordsmen/spearmen.  as well.  That might help account for their high kill rate despite being heavily outnumbered in the battle with the 700 slingers.

Ironically, "Benjamin" means "son of my right hand".

-Mark

[Thirsty Viking]

My Scriptural delvings have revealed that the tribe of Benjamin was noted for its left-handed and ambidextrous warriors.  Both uses of the word "left-handed", and all the references to ambidexterity that I have found are used to describe people of that tribe.  It may have been a cultural tradition for them to have left-handed warriors.  This over a period of a couple hundred years, as well.  Even King Saul had a unit of ambidextrous slingers/archers from that tribe, and Saul was himself a Benjamite.

Perhaps left-handed slingers became associted with Benjamin in a similar fashion that the longbowman became associated with England.  I would like to know if the Benjamites had units of left-handed swordsmen/spearmen.  as well.  That might help account for their high kill rate despite being heavily outnumbered in the battle with the 700 slingers.

Ironically, "Benjamin" means "son of my right hand".

-Mark

Well I didn't bring this up before...  They don't mentiona anything about the slingers dying persay.  But they do describe the masacre of the swordsmen.  Fewer than 700 people suvived..  i think it was 400?  Who were later allowed to kidnap wives.   Could it be that this group was predominantly the Lefty slingers?  If so then later generations could have had a much higher incidence of leftieness than previously.  It only makes sence to me that the slingers would have been at further range than the others, and better able to flee.    Secondly they were the only missle troops mentioned.  No missle troops are mentioned in 100k +  troops from israel.  This could have been a nice force multiplier too.

So where in the bible were the benji's  refered to as lefties... before or after this judges text (timewise)?