Axeing a sheild

[svenlein]

Another idea last night:

If you are fighting someone with a wooden sheild (even one with a metal rim), and are using an axe (ok pick maybe too), you can declare attack, wager number of dice, and if they block, after they allocate dice you can choose to try to lodge you axe in there shield.

The mechanics I'm still working on, here's an idea:
You have to pay another point of activation, but their defense target goes up by two for thier roll to avoid getting an axe in the sheild.
(this isn't super thought out, i'm very interested in suggestions)

Effect of having an axe in your shield: You get an emcumberance penalty of 2 CP

Scott

[Jake Norwood]

It's an interesting idea. I'm not convinced of an axe in the shield being worth 2 CP on encumbrance, though.

Jake

[Mokkurkalfe]

Perhaps one shall just count it as carrying an extra weapon for encumberance purposes?

[Thirsty Viking]

This sounds like too harsh a penalty to me.  My second thought is...  Intentionally disarming yourself in battle  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.   By choosing to intentionally lodge your weapon in thier shield...  this should open you to a counter strike from the weapon in thier other hand on the next exchange  IMO with a CP bonus for them and defense neg's  for you...   All that being said...   I have no experience with that.   But i think thats how the wingometer would read in the middle of a game session.   2 things to consider...  How big is the AXE?   Did the AXEMAN lose 2 CP for wielding it?    stuck in the shield,  the heavier end is near the player (easier to move this way)


Anyway  these are my thoughts on this novel approach to combat.   I can certainly see thrown axes  being stuck on shields.

[Jake Norwood]

The thing is that I think it would be pretty easy to dislodge, as the axe is a lever in nature...yeah, it'd slow things down, though. I'm thinking like this:

Terrain roll of 7+attacker's successes to dislodge
+2 Block DTN so long as it is lodged.
-1 die for Movement

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

Unless it is a VERY big axe that sounds too harsh to me Jake.

Especially if the blocker doesn't get an advantage on his next attack.

Annoying? yes.   Tiring long term? (endurance checks) Yes

But to immeadiately assess those mods seems too high to me.  And that change in DTN.   I'd think an EN*ST/2 check vs 4+Wt of axe every 3 exchanges before it kicks in.

[Mike Holmes]

It isn't the size of the axe, it's the length or moment arm that makes it unwieldy to have loged in the shield. I mention this because the Romans used a similar tactic. They would throw their pilums at shielded enemies not so much to injure them, but to lodge them in the opponent's shield. Making it practcally useless.

Interestingly, too, the pilum had a soft long spearhead that intentionally bent when it hit so that it couldn't be thrown back if it failed to lodge.

I think this is a valid tactic, and I think that a 2CP penalty for an axe mekes sense. Perhaps more (certainly more for a spear sticking out of it).

Mike

[Thirsty Viking]

I'm familiar with the pilum...  an axe is different on several levels however.    It Wasn't that the shields were useless on an individual basis...  more that they had a long shaft coming out at nearly a right ange that IMO negated the benefit of shield wall type defence...  To add to this effect the shaft would swing making balance a more difficult thing.  And those poles from the wooden section would bang into your buddies on defence....   much less the case with an axe most of the time.
The head of the axe will not turn in the shield,  thus the axe handle will not swing.   To effectively stick the axe into the shield  like a pilum  the angle will be almost 90 degrees... (a shield block was specified even if angled, the block will be almost parralell to the shaft))    the pilum shaft stretches out behind the head  to provide the momentum for the strike and the bending of the shaft.  The Axe handle is also 90 degrees to the head...   so axe handles (and pick)   will be close to parralell to the shield....    this minimizes any leverage effects of thier weight.

Also  since the Pilum was a thrown weapon,  it didn't leave you right up against your opponent unarmed.    The romans in thier disciplined shield walls would happily wait for the additional weight of the shields of thier opps to take effect.    And your right,  a buddy couldn't just pull the pilum out of a shield like an ave could easily be.


I hope this makes sence  as to why i don't believe Melee Axes should have the same effects as a pilum.  Also the shields typicaly encounteres might be better than the pilum faced....  I don't remember the special I watched on the pilum real well  so this may not be the case.  Remember the Pilum strategy went away....  I think it was because of better shields...  but i don't recall why for sure.   Was a series called  ARMS and ARMOR i think.   done by an english museum.. they had awesome combat renactments.

[Thirsty Viking]

Ok i've thought about it some more... the shields would be almost unusable with a pilum...

But that is largely because the pilum swings around.the pilum didn't stick in the shielr,  it passed through the shield  with the head shape preventing it from being pulled out.   the soft iron shaft bent to make it unusable as a return missle if it missed.   this bending was caused by the leveraged weight of the wodden shaft section.  

Anyway all these factors change in the presence of an axe's  design.   If th axe handle extends out away from the shield  the axe could easily be dislodged by using the handle as a modified club attack...  wouldn't do much damage but would clear the axe.    Or hitting the handle with your weapon would knock it out.    the axe is only efectively stuck if the handle is close to parallel to the shield face.

[Jake Norwood]

It is harsh, but I'm thinking of at least 3' of pole here, and lodged really solid. Fact is, I don't think it's a smart tactic, as it's pretty easy to open up (maybe the dislodge TTN is too high). Plus, it leaves the initial attacker weaponless.

Ooh, one more problem. Shield users are trained to deflect, not to "take the blow" on the shield. That being the case, it could be pretty difficult to lodge anything in a shield.

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

It is harsh, but I'm thinking of at least 3' of pole here, and lodged really solid. Fact is, I don't think it's a smart tactic, as it's pretty easy to open up (maybe the dislodge TTN is too high). Plus, it leaves the initial attacker weaponless.

Ooh, one more problem. Shield users are trained to deflect, not to "take the blow" on the shield. That being the case, it could be pretty difficult to lodge anything in a shield.

Jake

I agree...  it it were pointed out away from the shield...  that could be a big problem...  but i think i've shown it can't be.   The longer the pole...  the easier it will fall out over the normal course of combat.   the farther out in front of the shield it sticks... the more likely it is to be freed by other attacks.   I agree with you about the deflection strategy.   The whole tactic seems unworkable to me.

[Mike Holmes]

The axe would certainly be less effective. I was thinking like CP5 penalty for the pilum (just drop the shield). And two for the axe. Maybe just one? Eh.

As to the validity of the tactic of disarming oneself at close range, that's left to the weilder to decide. Would it be trained? Proably not. But not impossible to do if you felt it needed to be done.

Possibly more important, what about weapons getting stuck in shields accidentally?

Mike

[Thirsty Viking]

I brought up this issue as an asside at an earlier time.  the main issue was shield durability.   The result was that noone really wanted the rules on shields getting hacked up, Wanted to include stuck weapons.   Since it isn't addressed...  I decided but didn't post that a fumbled attack AND a FUMBLED block  would have a weapon stuck in shield.    

It would also have me the Slaphappy seneschal laughing my but off.

-John

[svenlein]

Ok i was under the impression it was a common tactic between 400 and 1000 to use an axe to render your oponents shield useless, I appear to be wrong.  I also thought frankish throwing axes had the same purpose as pilum but see the link below for a correction.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/franc.html

the Frankish and Anglo-Saxon verson of the pilum is called an Angon.  Or so i have been led to belive.

Scott

[Jake Norwood]

Ok i was under the impression it was a common tactic between 400 and 1000 to use an axe to render your oponents shield useless, I appear to be wrong.  I also thought frankish throwing axes had the same purpose as pilum but see the link below for a correction.

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/franc.html

the Frankish and Anglo-Saxon verson of the pilum is called an Angon.  Or so i have been led to belive.

Scott

I'm not convinced you're wrong, yet, but I admit to not knowing a whole lot in this area. Axes do help overcome shields, but that works fine in the attacker's hands. Now as to hurlbats and the like being used like pilum to mess up shields...beats me. It's certainly worth really looking into.

Jake