Grabbing weapons

[svenlein]

Therefore if the dagger guy got close in it would make more sense for the pikeman to pull a sword and have a more reasonable range advantage over the dagger guy. This is doubly true if the dagger guy has wisely grasped his opponent's pike. Then, instead of trying to recover the lost pike, the pikeman would just pull his sword and go at it.

Jake how would you simulate grabbing and opponents weapon in tros?

Thoughts:
It would be a defensive maneuver.  Or maybe and offensive version would just have a larger activation cost.
You can only grab a trust, or grab as an offensive maneuver.
It would be easier to grab a great sword that was thrust at you than a short sword that was thrust at you?

Scott

[Brian Leybourne]

Jake how would you simulate grabbing and opponents weapon in tros?

It's all in the book, under Grappling as a defensive move.

Brian.

[svenlein]

Grappling to Trap refers to grabbing someones arm that he is attacking with, im refering to grabing someones weapon.

Scott

[Lyrax]

It's not that much different.

[Jake Norwood]

It's not that much different.

Yeah, it's really not. Do you mean grabbing a sword? A spear? Different things, really...

Jake

[svenlein]

Yeah, it's really not. Do you mean grabbing a sword? A spear? Different things, really...

Both.

Are these all the same:
Grabbing someones arm who's attacking your
Trying to grab a dagger that someones trying to thrust at you.
Trying to grab a dagger that someones trying to slash at you.
Trying to grab a short sword that someones trying to thrust at you.
Trying to grab a short sword that someones trying to slash at you.
Trying to grab a long sword that someones trying to thrust at you.
Trying to grab a long sword that someones trying to slash at you.
Trying to grab a long spear that someones trying to thrust at you.
Trying to grab a short staff that someones trying to slash at you.
Trying to grab a pike that someones trying to thrust at you.

?

If they are not how are they different?

Scott

[Lyrax]

For big weapons: They must be parried, blocked or dodged before they can be grabbed.

For small weapons: The hand of the aggressor can be held before he actually strikes.

[Thirsty Viking]

there are quite a few diffrences across the board.  ok,  swords.   tye are often sharp and smoth.  It is much easier to hold by the hilt.  Grabbing a sword blade and keeping it from cutting your hand severly are very different things.
In the case of a pike, or a short staff,   you only have one hand on the weapon, the opponent has two.   If your gripping near the head probably you'll lose that grip almost immeadiately.   if you are several feet up the shaft  (unlikely IMO, if the pike wielder is fairly competant) you have a much easier chance.    

Metal gauntlets are not going to do very well in either case.  You'll take less damage, but have considerably less grip on a smoth pole, or metal surface.   Against a knife you might manage to grab the hand...   it's quick though.  and a good knife fighter is going to be on guard against this.  Grabs are harder than Parries partial evasions IMO and should have a higher TN  Perhaps a TN of about 8 or 9.  Grabbing at the shoulder is much easier but this leaves the weapon rather free.

I'll think some more on this...  but this is what comes to mind at first.

[Brian Leybourne]

On a related note.. what do people think of Duck & Weave? With a TN of 9 I find that it just doesn't get used much, if an opponent swings a sword at you with 6 dice at TN6, you would need 15 dice on a D&W just to expect to equal his successes.

I have played around with dropping the TN to 8 to see how that pans out (it's even an option I slipped into V2 of the combat sim), makes it a lot more useful, but maybe it's too useful now? (and it's only +1TN over a partial evasion).

Thoughts?

[svenlein]

Thirsty would you suggest the only people who grab opponents weapons are either significantly more skilled than the opponent or are dead?  Because with your interpretations of grabs there would be almost no reason to do them.

Jake in sword fights do people (of similar skill) grab there opponents weapon successfully, or do only superior duelers do this maneuver to show off?

Thanks,

Scott

[svenlein]

Jake do duelists of similar skill duck and weave against each other?  If so does the person who tries to do his almost always get hit, b/c that is what the rules produce.

Scott

[Thirsty Viking]

Thirsty would you suggest the only people who grab opponents weapons are either significantly more skilled than the opponent or are dead?  Because with your interpretations of grabs there would be almost no reason to do them.

Scott

What i am suggesting is that with live steel, it would be rare...   weapons like a mace on the other hand,  it could be quite effective.   one hand versus one hand,   and the head prevents it from being torn out of your hand...  in a contest of str,  you probably take it from the oponent. unless he has a wrist thong.

I've never heard of spearman greasing thier weapons to make them harder to grap...   IMO this would have been done if it was easy to catch them.  If so then in our world the poles woule be greased on thier buisness end.

[Jake Norwood]

According to historical sources and manuals, steel blades were grabbed frequently, even with bare hands. I personally don't advocate the practice, but it was done. Spears weren't greased, I assume, because it was important to be able to grab your own spear all over, too.

Jake

[Lyrax]

If you know what you're doing (and anyone with a proficiency over 2 or 3 probably does) then the risks of grabbing a blade are slim to none, and the possible benefits are more than worth it.

Risks: If the blade slips, it'll cut your hand pretty nastily.  If the blade slips.

Advantages: If the opponent can't use his weapon (it happens when they've grabbed it!), you can usually get a strike in with your own before he tackles you in an attempt to wrestle.

A lvl 1-2 wound vs. a lvl 3-5 wound? No contest.

Also, a pikeman/spearman cannot pull his weapon out of his oppenent's grip (once the haft is grabbed), unless he's lots faster than his opponent, or his opponent has very sweaty hands (bad grip).  This has been backed by practice with a short staff (never seen anyone yank the staff out of someone's hand once it was grabbed).

[Bob Richter]

Also, a pikeman/spearman cannot pull his weapon out of his oppenent's grip (once the haft is grabbed), unless he's lots faster than his opponent, or his opponent has very sweaty hands (bad grip).  This has been backed by practice with a short staff (never seen anyone yank the staff out of someone's hand once it was grabbed).

It's all about leverage, really. If you're using a staff-type weapon in a long form (that is, with one hand on the butt and one perhaps a third up the shaft,) an opponent who takes hold of it at the tip has better leverage against your butt-hand than you have against him (your forward hand being the fulcrum and, as such, having no leverage at all.)

This I know from physics class and a very significant amount of practice and trial with a Quarterstaff. I imagine the same holds true for longer staves and spears.

Generally if your opponent gets hold of a spear or pike, the best thing to do is draw something else (perhaps another spear) and kill him. You're not going to get your spear back until you do, after all.