Money question

[toli]

If you want a sort of vague system (like that D20 one) you could just use common sense.  For example, one could use the current information to determine the daily cost of living for each social class.  The PC would simply deduct this cost each day unless he actually wanted to purchase something particular or bribe a guard etc.  The seneshal could simply decide whether this new expense was part of the standard of living for the PC or not.  For example, buying a NPC a drink in a tavern might be considered a standard (and uncounted) expenditure for a high freeman (when averaged out over time).  Purchasing a round of drinks would not.   Throwing a couple of feasts each year would be  considered normal for a noble.  War expenses would not.  

One thing to consider would be how much an individual's cost of living would increase by travelling.  A knight might live at 20G per hear when at home, but how do his expenses increase when travelling?  

Personally, I like keeping track of money--especially the weight of money.   PCs can't walk around with huge hoards of $$.  It is good, however, to have a quick way of calculating expenses over long unplayed periods, however.

NT

[Irmo]

I think an alternative mechanism for wealth should be introduced for people who don't want to keep track of wealth. The concept of money in some time periods that TROS is likely to be set in was a nebulous concept at best. Land, livestock, and other things were more likely to constitute wealth in these time periods. So a more abstract mechanism would simplify many things.

I disagree. Coins were made from noble metals for a reason: They could be evaluated by their weight even far away from where they were minted based on their material value. The concept of money is very well known in time period equivalents that TROS matches. Chief example would be the German Fugger merchant family, who financed not only the election of Charles V. to emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, but also his wars, to a degree that the Emperor became dependent on Fugger's goodwill. He was the largest creditor not only of the emperor, but of numerous other Dukes and Princes after buying the rights to mine the mountains of Salzburg and Tyrol for silver and, after  expansion to the copper in Hungary, became the leader in metal trade. He worked as a bank for rich clergy, paying them interest on their deposit and financed the catholic church and numerous counterreformation armies.
Even Maximilian I had Fugger as his largest creditor, and the fact that Fugger basically paid for numerous advisors and courtiers saw for it that Fugger stayed in business.
Through his dependencies all over Europe, with mining, smelting or smithing sites scattered across the map, Fugger was frequently better informed than kings and emperors as to what was going on in Europe.

Ok, you say, but what about earlier?

The Hanseatic League was a league of merchants, mostly german, with league members from the Netherlands to Sweden, and with economical and political influence from Portugal to Russia and Italy to Scandinavia at its height in the 16th century, but it had existed since the 13th century, when it started to dominate international trade in nothern Europe, without achieving monopoly, however. From the 14th century onward, the cities with Hanse afiliation tightened their relations to the political field to prevail against ambitions of the nobilities in the individual countries. This is best demonstrated by the fact that the Hanseatic League deployed troops (mostly militia) to fight wars with, for example Denmark. (A civilian organisation fighting a war against a King)

All of that thanks to money.

[Jake Norwood]

While that specific mechanic has some obvious flaws (as Brian so artfully pointed out), I do think that there is something to be said for a more abstract money system. I've been tinkering with ideas, but most of them lead to the above problem.

I'm happy to discuss alternatives, though.

Jake

[Valamir]

I'm in the middle of a book called "Making a Living in the Middle Ages" (yeah I know...not exactly on the Times Best Seller list).  It would more accurately be titled Making a Living in Britain in the Middle Ages, but there is enough comparison to the continent that it has some broader application.

I can't recommend it enough for people interested in period economics.  I'm in the chapter on 850 to 1050 and learning all kinds of newly discovered facts that overturn some prior assumptions.

Such as:  The village system of British agriculture didn't exist in the 5th and 6th century as previously thought.  Following the departure of the Romans the importance of centralized population centers dropped dramatically.  Villages didn't return until the 9th century when the population had increased to the point that more efficient forms of organizing labor and land management were necessary.

Contrary to many assumptions about top down management from the aristocracy, much innovation stems directly from the commoners coming up with new ways to meet the demands of the aristrocracy and still have enough left over to improve their standard of living (the shift to villages being such a bottom up innovation).

A Coin based market economy is now (by this author) believed to be far more important to the common people than typically believed.  Not so much because of daily use of coins themselves, but because of what it enabled in the form of wider ranging transactions.  Medieval economy was greatly impacted when land began to change hands on the basis of cash payment (ususally purchases by monasterys) rather than strictly Lord to Vassal grants.

A Coin horde discovered near York dated to 920 contained coins minted in Samarkand...in Uzbekistan.  No doubt they had found their way to England via the Vikings and their tradeing contacts in Kiev.  This does speak to a wider knowledge of the world at large than often believed.

The book goes all the way through the 1400s IIRC so hopefully there will be some interesting nuggets closer to RoS period.

[luke silburn]

While that specific mechanic has some obvious flaws (as Brian so artfully pointed out), I do think that there is something to be said for a more abstract money system. I've been tinkering with ideas, but most of them lead to the above problem.

I'm happy to discuss alternatives, though.

Personally I've moved well away from expecting characters to account for all their cash. Things generally fall in to four categories IME - affordable without a second thought, affordable with a bit of effort or deferred gratification, affordable if you are willing to take on significant debts/obligations and unaffordable no matter what.

To that end I incline towards wealth mechanics which abstract the bean counting and focus on where goodies fall on that four point scale for different characters. An example:

Ars Magica has some rules in Ordo Nobilis that provide for wealth management fairly abstractly without making players roll to purchase.

Basically characters can take virtues or a flaw to be wealthier/poorer than the norm for their social class and the combination of wealth level with social class gives you thresholds for on-hand petty cash, what can be raised with a bit of notice and what you need a serious loan to buy. The totals also provide a way for characters to invest in social advancement and feeds into how much time a character can devote to non-subsisdence activities such as training or practising skills, doing magical research etc (this is important for a game with a long term campaign focus like Ars).

Luke

[Stephen]

In my experience, players either love counting up money or find it bores them to tears -- and a lot of the former breed died out when the amount of gold won stopped being a direct determinator of how much experience your character gained.  I too am not averse to an abstract system, although a randomizer mechanic isn't necessary if players don't want it.

Ideally the system should be two-tiered.  There should be a way of tracking ready cash by exact numbers for those transactions the PCs are making in person, right now, with whatever they have on them (this allows for the classic marketplace haggling scenes we all love as the PCs desperately scrounge for that last silver piece), and there should also be a way of handling them more abstractly -- if the PCs' fortress needs the services of two skilled masons and a load of quarried stone for necessary repair following the bandit siege, it's much simpler to handle that as a comparison of abstract Resources vs. Cost scores than it is to figure out exactly how much the stone costs, increased rates for poor roads, haggling with the masons, counting up how much gold, silver and copper is in the treasury, etc.

(Of course, some players may like this level of detail, but many more won't, and the option should be open.)

[Roger Eberhart]

Dying Earth has a pretty cool system for wealth. Cugel class characters start each adventure broke. Turjan and Rhialto class characters have a wealth attribute they roll against. There is more to it than that, but it's a pretty slick system. I'd love to see a similar system adapted to TRoS. Personally, I hate keeping track of every character's assets. This is about storytelling, not economics.

[Irmo]

Dying Earth has a pretty cool system for wealth. Cugel class characters start each adventure broke. Turjan and Rhialto class characters have a wealth attribute they roll against. There is more to it than that, but it's a pretty slick system. I'd love to see a similar system adapted to TRoS. Personally, I hate keeping track of every character's assets. This is about storytelling, not economics.

But assests (or lack thereof) make for great stories. A party that's broke will be eager to find a way to make it to the next day, whereas a party that's bathing in gold will attract attention of people who'd like it. And seeing the coins trickling away creates quite a bit more intense feeling about where their assest are going. Also, coinage makes for great little bits and pieces of atmosphere....watch the moneylender in Fahal eye the stahlnish coins with suspicion and test them for their authenticity....

[Jake Norwood]

Dying Earth has a pretty cool system for wealth. Cugel class characters start each adventure broke. Turjan and Rhialto class characters have a wealth attribute they roll against. There is more to it than that, but it's a pretty slick system. I'd love to see a similar system adapted to TRoS. Personally, I hate keeping track of every character's assets. This is about storytelling, not economics.

But assests (or lack thereof) make for great stories. A party that's broke will be eager to find a way to make it to the next day, whereas a party that's bathing in gold will attract attention of people who'd like it. And seeing the coins trickling away creates quite a bit more intense feeling about where their assest are going. Also, coinage makes for great little bits and pieces of atmosphere....watch the moneylender in Fahal eye the stahlnish coins with suspicion and test them for their authenticity....

This is exactly what I had in mind when we did all that crazy economic stuff. There's a lot of usable substance to the "realities" of money and economics that can make for really great stories. On the other hand, if it bogs you down (and I know it can), then ditch it. And let us know what you're using.

Jake

[Irmo]

This is exactly what I had in mind when we did all that crazy economic stuff. There's a lot of usable substance to the "realities" of money and economics that can make for really great stories. On the other hand, if it bogs you down (and I know it can), then ditch it. And let us know what you're using.

Jake

If you want to get real messy, let the party have some clipped coins, i.e. coins where a forger clipped a bit of the metal off to melt it, and filed the edges round. Too little a difference to be judged with bare hands, but wait till the party comes to a moneylender or merchant abroad and wants to exchange for local currency...he puts the coins on a scale, eyes the characters suspiciously...looks back at his scale....and then it's up to you if he gives them far less money than they are expecting or calls the guards ;)

[Bankuei]

Regardless of the reality of it,  the idea of the "wealth attribute" has been used in Marvel Super Heros and Donjon.  No, it is not a good simulative mechanic, but a quick one.  Obviously with common sense, it should be obvious about certain things players can or cannot afford.  If you want to look at TROS from a GNS standpoint, do it like so;

G/S-count those pennies, sell that silver fork you stole, plunder, er, I mean, bring back tribute to the king, yeah...

N-money is secondary and not something to be kept track of.  You're rich, poor, ok, and either just fine, doing exceedingly well, or about to drop a class and desperate for money.

Me personally, I only get stingy with the cash at the character creation, since that's when folks want to buy all kinds of nifty armor and weapons.  After that, I look at how much they have left, and just guestimate it from there.

Chris

[Bob Richter]

Personally, I love tRoS's money mechanic, and wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with a more abstract money system.

Even D&D has coinage. Come to think of it, every RPG I've played has a monetary system, though D&D's is entirely too clean for the pseudohistorical period it's set in.

tRoS's money just has a groovy 14th-Century feel to it, and I like it. Non-decimal conversions are cool.

Money is one of the realities of life. As such, I find it an indespensible part of roleplaying generally.

Though I would like a more in-depth accounting about how the Odeon "teeth" currency functions. :)

[Jake Norwood]

Though I would like a more in-depth accounting about how the Odeon "teeth" currency functions. :)

Ha! Me too...

My thought is that Odeon works on barter and primitive trade, but the teeth are like jewlry, and traded as such...I mean in a place like that they're probably both rare and hard to obtain once found. Sounds like a decent currency to me (*and* everyone starts out with 32 of them).

Jake

[Brian Leybourne]

So the question becomes:

"Do I smash out all of my teeth thus becoming rich but probably choking to death the next time I sit down to a steak dinner, or do I retain the ability to eat anything but be unable to actually afford food and thus starve to death?"

Wow.. harsh country. Must cut down on the tourist trade. :-)

Brian.

[Irmo]

So the question becomes:

"Do I smash out all of my teeth thus becoming rich but probably choking to death the next time I sit down to a steak dinner, or do I retain the ability to eat anything but be unable to actually afford food and thus starve to death?"

Wow.. harsh country. Must cut down on the tourist trade. :-)

Brian.

Easy. Buy lots of oatmeal ;)