Cinematic Role-playing (Larp)

[SarimRune]

I need a little help here.  I've created a LARP/table top game which I'm rather proud of.  However there remained one major obstacle which I would like to conquer first.  
   In particular that obstacle is White Wolf's MET larps.  Actually it's a problem with many other larps but the problem seems to occur with frequency in Vampire/Werewolf larps.  The problem is that characters are not, at all, dramatic or cinematic in any way.  
   In most larps defence, there is nothing to support being cinematic.  There is no reason to take any action that isn't efficient except that it makes a better story out of it.  Why would a character fight another character fair?  Why not use a sniper rifle to disable their victim and then come in for the kill.  (I've seen this sniper idea crop up too many times).
   
   Ultimately, dramatic/cinematic action is rather foolish.  It isn't efficient and sometimes it looks downright stupid (kidnapping an enemy's love one instead of just shooting them dead).  But I'm convinced that it makes for a more exciting, more interesting story.  

   I'm looking for a way to solve this.  This is a mentality that crops up since the day of D&D.  I'm curious how other games handle encouraging cinematic action.  I've got Feng Shui and wasn't terribly impressed with their method (make difficulty number harder).  Their method wouldn't work for a LARP.

   I've got some ideas but I'm not dead set for or against them.  I'm hoping that I can get some help.  Please remember that LARPs are not the same as table top.  LARPs have many more players who will be on their own, all whom contribute to the story.

Option 1:
   Providing a cinematic point system (I've heard the Buffy game does something like this).  Some characters will have points to change the story to suit their needs.  However this system is very tricky with a lot of players.  Some restrictions and limitations must apply.

Option 2:
   Some characters could be classified as cinematic characters.  The advantage is that they alone can take the cinematic points (above) to use but to regain those pionts they must do dramatic/cinematic actions (and promote them in others).  

Option 3:
   Character death is by permission only.  If you choose to hold on to your character then you must present the reason why you are spared and you must take some sort of limitation that to appease the character who aimed to kill you (i.e.  You're afraid of them, you must spare them if you ever get the upper hand, etc).  
   This is tricky because I've seen some characters who are goof-balls and really just need to be killed.  So if you have a powergamer who doesn't want to lose their character...what do you do?  

   I'm out of ideas after this.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I need a little help here.  I've created a LARP/table top game which I'm rather proud of.  However there remained one major obstacle which I would like to conquer first.  

<snip>

   I'm out of ideas after this.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

First of all, by "Cinematic" I'm guessing you mean "like a cool action movie," right? Like, lots of Stunts.

The problem with using Stunts in a LARP is that action movie RPGs benefit from the characters being able to a) perform crazy feats and b) be able to make shit up ("Oh, I fell 100 feet but landed in a truck filled with styrofoam peanuts"). See Extreme Vengeance or octaNe for this kinda stuff. In a LARP environment, the big draw and strength is that whatever you do is what your characters do. So you have to work within those limits in order to Get Stuff Done.

Short version: Off the top of my head, I can't think of a good, simple system to reward action-packed stunts.

- J

[Bankuei]

Of course, you may in fact mean, cinematic as in "what's more dramatically appropriate" as opposed to necessarily action based.  If that is what you mean, you may wish to take a look at Riddle of Steel's Spiritual Attributes or consider basing "difficulty" or advantage off of dramatically appropriate actions rather than realistic actions.

Again, if the point is drama, I don't necessarily see the need for death mechanics other than when the player decides it would make for a good death.  If one looks at cinema, aside from mooks and redshirts, death is comparitively uncommon.

What you should take a look at is the play experience you want to create and base your system off that.

Chris

[SarimRune]

First of all, by "Cinematic" I'm guessing you mean "like a cool action movie," right? Like, lots of Stunts.

Hmm, not so much.  I'm thinking more of encouraging players to take more broad dramatic/cinematic actions.  
A situation in the larp recently came up that really threw me off.  I'm playing my own game and was forced to kill off another character.  This character's player was a min-maxer and wasn't that good of a role-player.  Now in turn, I have to inform another character about the death of his mentor.  The player told me, clearly out of game, that he might have to kill my character in turn.  No worries, I thought, as long as it's 'cool'.  
 He further, however explained to me how he wouldn't fight me fairly.  He would simple get another character in game to shoot my character with a rifle from a distance and then rush in to take me out while I was very wounded.  
 I realized at that moment that he just doesn't get it.  A person could be coldly detached and carry out such a plan, I suppose.  In the real world, this would be a very good idea.  But I play games for the same reason that I watch movies/TV and read books.  To see something more exciting, more dramatic.  Efficiency is for the real world.  If it wasn't for cinematic action, so many action movies would be boring.  'Arnuld' and Chow Yun Fat (sp) would have been shot by the enemies in the first scene.  
   This game is about classic heroic/villainous struggles and I've realized that this just isn't getting across to some players.  
So I'm not looking for specific 'stunts' (like Feng Shui).  More like, how to encourage the players toward the cinematic atmosphere of the game?  
To give perhaps a better example of what I mean I'll use something from the TV show Angel.  
In an episode, Angel just shows up in an (occult) law firm despite there being guards posted to detect vampires.  He casually explains how he circumvented the security systems (and he's done this before).  The point of the sceen is to have a conversation with another character and show her how easily he can be where he can get her.  He's not there to kill her.  
 This is a good example of a dramatic but inefficient action.  No way he could get into the building normally and at the same time, he wouldn't likely leave there alive.  But it's a dramatic scene and so it happens.  
 Hopefully I'm being more clear?  =)

If that is what you mean, you may wish to take a look at Riddle of Steel's Spiritual Attributes or consider basing "difficulty" or advantage off of dramatically appropriate actions rather than realistic actions.

Don't suppose you could give me the jist of RoS's Spiritual Attributes? =)  The larp mechanic is pretty simple (it needs to be) so it might be difficult to base it off dramatic appropriate actions, but I get your drift.  
 
 My basic idea is that a character could spend a 'drama' point (or whatever) to get a chance to affect the plot in some appropriate dramatic way.  But it's tricky because one person's 'drama' means just saving their character's butt all the time.  

I'm just hoping that this isn't a hopeless endeavor.

Thanks,
Trent

[Walt Freitag]

Hi Sarim, and welcome to the Forge!

You seem to be talking about two different problems. One is system or mechanics for dramatic cinematic actions in a LARP, and the other is player behavior.

Jared is right about the basic problem of truly "cinematic" actions in LARPs, of course. However, it seems more likely that your real complaint here is that players don't take advantage of even those opportunities that the LARP does give them. Dramatic public confrontations with enemies. Bad guy PCs making threats or taking hostages. "Leave the girl alone, take me instead" sorts of heroics. Going out in a blaze of glory.

I don't believe that your solution lies in game mechanics per se. Besides the practical problem of game mechanics either being very limited in scope or breaking the reality of the LARP, there's also the problem of system being weak at eliciting player behavior in a LARP. (This is contrary to Forge consensus about tabletop games, but it's my experience with LARPs.) For instance, just because you put in an interesting and elaborate combat system doesn't mean player-characters will fight each other if doing so is not to their long-term advantage.

Basically, the real problem is that your players are cowards. They don't want to take risks. Especially when there are lower-risk (though less interesting, for them and for the whole audience) ways of accomplishing the same ends.

What you have to do is stop turning them into cowards by ceasing to give the most rewards to those who act as cowards.

First, don't use continued characters, especially not in conjunction with an advancement system, especially not if that advancement system is slow. Participating in LARPs is expensive and time-consuming. Who's going to risk the life or even the reputation of a character who has many sessions of play invested in him? I'd be a coward too.

Second, take the control over the player-characters' fates out of the players' hands. Create a LARP environment where everyone, whether they play well or badly, can suffer undeserved setbacks and changes in status that they have no control over or defense against. This will liberate your players.

In some settings this type of environment is natural and appropriate, such as in a Buffy-style light horror mythos, or a fairy-tale fantasy world full of witches who turn people into frogs for trivial reasons, or a typical action movie adventure world. I describe such environments as comedic because of a conceptual connection I believe exists between classical comedy and this style of game world. This doesn't mean that such games have to be comedy in the conventional modern sense (though they can be, and in fact this is the only way I know of to allow effective humorous comedy in a LARP). It does mean that it's incompatible with some of the most serious dramatic settings and scenarios, such as WWII Casablanca or a society of angst-ridden vampires. But it's compatible with true horror such as Cthulhu mythos (horror and comedy are rather closely related, closely enough, in fact, to interbreed and produce black comedy). And it should be perfect for cinematic action-adventure. (Jackie Chan never deserves to have the crap beaten out of him by the thugs in the back alley in the second act. It just happens to him. And aren't you, the audience, always glad to see it happen, because it means he doesn't have to pull his own punches any more? That's a comedic world view.)

Liberating players by giving them less control over their characters' fate probably sounds insane to you. It's the single most unexpected idea I discovered in my twelve years of intensive LARP design and participation (and it took the first eight of those years to figure it out). But the reason is very simple. When players know their characters are subject to unexpected uncontrollable undeserved setbacks (and rewards) at any time, they stop limiting themselves to doing whatever appears most likely to avoid the setbacks and earn the rewards, and start doing what looks like the most fun. This sometimes works best overall if neither the setbacks nor the rewards are often, if ever, permanent, but that's not essential. Players will have more fun even if it's a horror setting and they're getting killed off left and right.

Except for dysfunctional players for whom the most fun is ruining the game (and who would be a problem in any case), players who make decisions based on what's the most fun will do more creative and dramatic things, especially when there are witnesses. It allows players to play for attention instead of strategic advantage, and everyone benefits from that.

- Walt

[Le Joueur]

Hey Trent,

My basic idea is that a character could spend a 'drama' point (or whatever) to get a chance to affect the plot in some appropriate dramatic way.  But it's tricky because one person's 'drama' means just saving their character's butt all the time.  

Let me suggest that you're going about this all backwards.  If you want drama, reward it.  That would be "a character gets a 'drama' point (or whatever) whenever they take a chance to affect the plot in some approriately dramatic way."  Then they use the 'drama' points to 'save their butts' later on.

Get it?  No dramatically appropriate actions = no butt-saving points.  The trick is getting all the 'appropriate drama' out there, 'on the table' so there's no confusion of your 'dramatic vision.'  Your 'problem players' will be torn between doing things your way or 'the bad way.'  Trust me, your way (and the points) will win out in the end.

Changing over to the new system will be the real bear; a lot of people will feel like you've 'pulled the rug out from under them,' so do it as gradually and nicely as you can.

Good luck and remember to have fun.

Fang Langford

[Andrew Martin]

Hey Trent,

My basic idea is that a character could spend a 'drama' point (or whatever) to get a chance to affect the plot in some appropriate dramatic way.  But it's tricky because one person's 'drama' means just saving their character's butt all the time.  

Let me suggest that you're going about this all backwards.  If you want drama, reward it.  That would be "a character gets a 'drama' point (or whatever) whenever they take a chance to affect the plot in some approriately dramatic way."  Then they use the 'drama' points to 'save their butts' later on.

Get it?  No dramatically appropriate actions = no butt-saving points.  The trick is getting all the 'appropriate drama' out there, 'on the table' so there's no confusion of your 'dramatic vision.'  Your 'problem players' will be torn between doing things your way or 'the bad way.'  Trust me, your way (and the points) will win out in the end.

Changing over to the new system will be the real bear; a lot of people will feel like you've 'pulled the rug out from under them,' so do it as gradually and nicely as you can.

Good luck and remember to have fun.

Fang Langford

I totally agree with Fang. In my experience, min-maxing players play the way they do because the game system systematically rewards them for playing that way. By consistently rewarding dramatic play, the min-maxers will think, "which gives me the most "plusses" (or reward) by the rules?" and conclude that dramatic play gives the most plusses, and so will automatically play that way, to gain more character power. This will then make your good players very happy! :)

[Valamir]

Exactly so.

While Walt raises a very effective strategy about continueing characters and advancement, an alternative (preferable if you like continueing characters) is to make sure that advancement only occurs as the result of behaviors you wish to reward.

Using the drama idea above you wind up with a situation like the following.

Play it safe, earn no drama points, an eventually when danger does manage to find you, you're toast.

or

Go for drama and excitement even when its not exactly logical.  Get rewarded with drama points.  Use drama points to save you from the extra danger you expose yourself to.

Also drawn from RoS the following.  If a character winds up going out in a blaze of glory doing something dramatically fun but totally absurd (from a realistic perspective) award extra drama points to his NEXT character.

[Bankuei]

Ok, it does sound like you want what is most dramatically appropriate.  If that is the case, instead of measuring likelyhood of success by reality, you do it by how dramatically cool something is.

Example(not necessarily your system)

Sniping from far away
Completely dull-Player must win 3 rock/paper/scissors tests

Dueling one's opponent
Fairly Entertaining- Best 2 of 3 or 3 of 5

Beating down one's opponent, talking mad trash, letting them live, knowing they'll come back with more drama
Cinematically appropriate- Player must win 1 out of 3 tests to succeed.

And of course, award cinematic actions with points, but also make the points independent of character.  That is, if John(the player) has 12 points and his character dies, John will still have 12 points no matter how many characters he goes through, until he spends them.  Now, it may become a better idea to let a character die, and get more points, than to hold on to them.

As far as RoS's spiritual attributes, you should check out their forum, and website, but basically players only receive any kind of reward by acting in accordance with their character's motivations.

Chris

[SarimRune]

Let me suggest that you're going about this all backwards. If you want drama, reward it. That would be "a character gets a 'drama' point (or whatever) whenever they take a chance to affect the plot in some approriately dramatic way." Then they use the 'drama' points to 'save their butts' later on.

Whoa.

What is really funny is that I had this sudden idea to allow the Storyguide (my game's term for GM) to grant a some sort of 'dramatic point' for dramatic actions instead of giving all characters some form of dramatic points.  Yeah, reward the player for being dramatic, not for being safe.  I must have been 'channeling' you Fang.  =)
   I was going to call them Indulgences.  Fits with the relgious nature of the game.

While Walt raises a very effective strategy about continueing characters and advancement, an alternative (preferable if you like continueing characters) is to make sure that advancement only occurs as the result of behaviors you wish to reward.

I REALLY like the idea that your achievements, your risks and your dramatic/cinematic nature govern your Advancement.  I was just going to have the standard 'give XP' after every game.  But why not base it off a character's contribution to the game.  Why reward players who sit back for a dozen games until they earn enough 'XP' before they go after their opponents.  (And then do it cheaply).  

Wow, I really like that.  Right there, that solves a bunch of problems.  

You seem to be talking about two different problems. One is system or mechanics for dramatic cinematic actions in a LARP, and the other is player behavior.

Yep.  You're right.  I know that I can't correct player behavior.  In the game that I'm playing (some friends are now running it for me) you can see two groups.  The groups that totally forget about using their XP and are just in for the role-playing.  If they're characters die, they don't mind provided it was a good death.  The other group figures out what is the best way to spend their XP, to advance their character, to take out their enemies, etc.  I'm sure we've all encountered them.
 I suppose what I'm hoping for is that the system would support players taking more risks and making the game more interesting.  I do not actually mind powergamers, provided they create a better story.  I had to kill a powergamer's character in the game and the legacy that he's caused is great.  
 I think that if the system supports cinematic/dramatics/comedic action, through giving Zeal (xp) and Indulgences, then that might work very well.  You couldn't advance your character until you actually did something risky in the game.  Picking on weakers characters offers little risk so it wouldn't earn you much.  
 Ok, I'm thinking out loud here.

Big thanks to everybody.  I really like where this is going now.  I've very excited about developing this.  

Trent