What does the box cost?

[Christoffer Lernö]

I'm a sucker for the old format - You know 2+ saddle stiched books in a box with a few fliers and maybe dice thrown in for good measure. (Hello old red box D&D)

If we forget about the fliers and the dice for a while, what's the cost of adding a box compared to just selling a softcover?

Example A:
One perfect bound softcover book at about 150 pages
No box, no extras. "Standard RPG book" format.

Example B:
Two saddle stiched books at 70+ pages each
All placed in a box (and maybe adding some fliers to that)

How do these two examples compare in cost (approximately)?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I'm a sucker for the old format - You know 2+ saddle stiched books in a box with a few fliers and maybe dice thrown in for good measure.

I think the key word is "sucker." ;) The box set seems to be a holdover from the chiclet wargames of the past...you know, a rulebook, a scenario book, big-ass map(s) and 1,000 tiny cardstock pieces. Oh, and dice.

I think marketing is the primary motivator in splitting up books into player books/GM books. After all, one GM -- up to 6-8 players. Makes sense to bring the price point down so that you can sell 7-9 books instead of 1 or 2.

I could, of course, be talking out of my butt here.

What might be interesting is a box set containing a number of different games. Either with the same world (ala the WoD Gift Pack of Ridiculous-ness -- Vampire, WW, Mage, Wraith and Changeling) or the same theme (the "Amazing Horror Game Gift Pack" featuring Dead Meat, Cthonian and Squeam 3) or the same system (Sorcerer Premise Pack -- Electric Ghosts, Urge, Hellbound, Schism and Charnel Gods).

Notice two of the three example packs featured my games. YES!

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Does anyone know the straightforward financial answer, regarding box-type publishing? It's a good question, even if only for historical reasons.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Check with Bill Gibbs at Omega Games the Publisher of Paper Wars.  They actually offer card board flatboxes for sale at retail prices, so he'd know how much they cost.  Their boxes are about the size of an AH Bookcase game but a little thinner.  

omegagames@aol.com

[Ted E. Childers]

The box set seems to be a holdover from the chiclet wargames of the past...you know, a rulebook, a scenario book, big-ass map(s) and 1,000 tiny cardstock pieces. Oh, and dice.

If it's just a holdover then it held over for quite a while.  TSR put out boxed sets well into the latter days of 2nd edition.  I have stacks of Planescape and Forgotten Realm box sets.  In fact, the Planescape box set Hellbound: The Blood War came out in 1996 (about 4 years before 3rd edition).  I think it might have been one of the last ones that they put out.

I know this doesn't answer the original question, but I wanted to point out that TSR put out many boxed sets almost all the way up till 3rd edition came out.

When did WotC buy TSR?  Was that about the time they stopped putting out boxed sets?  Perhaps only a WotC or TSR insider can truely say why they put a stop to boxed sets.  

Seems to me that shipping costs would be a big factor since it's not only slightly heavier but also bulky.  And what about shelf space?  Plus I've seen many a boxed set get smashed in a store, leaving a merchant with a damaged item that no one will buy.  Perhaps this all went into the demise of the boxed set.

[Christoffer Lernö]

Seems to me that shipping costs would be a big factor since it's not only slightly heavier but also bulky.  And what about shelf space?  Plus I've seen many a boxed set get smashed in a store, leaving a merchant with a damaged item that no one will buy.  Perhaps this all went into the demise of the boxed set.

Interesting comments, something which makes me want to ask: If one wants one or more of the advantages of a box?

For example:

* Able to divide the game over 2 or more books but distribute them together
* Put in extra material, character sheets, fliers etc
* Have a nice attractive "cover" without having to print it on the book[/list:u]
What are the alternatives? Aside from wrapping it in plastic I can't really come up with anything. I think the ease of which a box is damaged is a valid concern so that should be dealt with.

Ideas?

[Steve Dustin]

Just to point out -- the box sets aren't entirely dead yet. WotC put out the DnD Adventure Set as the roleplaying intro for DnD, they put a similar one out for Star Wars, and Decipher has put out a LotR "beginners" Adventure game set in the Mines of Moria, and I believe will be putting one out for the Two Towers sometime around December or January.

Frankly, I don't remember the box set having anything more than a couple of cool "extras" and most of the written material included easily fit between two covers. For example, when I first bought Call of Cthuhu, I got more information in my Games Workshop hardback then the box set had at the time. And I still have the hardback, only had to photocopy the pages I wanted to, and needed to get my own dice.

Take care, Steve Dustin

[Ted E. Childers]

Just to point out -- the box sets aren't entirely dead yet. WotC put out the DnD Adventure Set as the roleplaying intro for DnD, they put a similar one out for Star Wars

I knew I was forgetting some more recent boxed sets!

I'd like to add that my local gaming store has a stack of the WotC D20 Star Wars (intro adventure) box sets.  They are discounted at 1/2 price and collecting dust.  It's interesting to note that the box set not only has an intro adventure, but also dice, counters, and a "limited edition"  Chewbacca action figure.  Even marked down with an action figure thrown in, it's simply not selling (this is at a north Houston, Texas store).

I'm not sure if these intro gamer boxed sets are very good examples.  I know these 3ed DnD and d20 Star Wars are both introductory boxed sets with only the bare rules to play.  I think WotC released them both as marketing hype before the main game itself (in hardback) came out.

Once again, I don't want to get away from the original question on the cost of putting out a boxed set.  I can ask Sue Cook (Monte Cook's wife) on her forum for Writers and Editors.  Although she was only an editor at WotC (not a marketing exec.), she may know or be able to point us in the right direction.

[John Wick]

Unfortunately, I can't quote numbers. However, I do know that all the boxed sets AEG released lost money. Not because they sold poorly (they sold rather well), but because the production cost was so high, it was almost impossible to recoup.

[Henry Fitch]

I don't know about the finances, but I'd like to add that the Everway boxed set is, in my opinion, the most physically satisfying RPG product out there. Opening that big box with all those card decks and beautiful character sheets... mm, better than Nobilis. This must be an advantage.

[Michael S. Miller]

Hi, Henry.

Physically satisfying? Yes. Physically able to fit on a bookshelf (or in a book bag)? No.

My wife runs lots of Everway at conventions and at home and that huge oversized box is so much a pain to lug around and handle that we haven't used it for years! It just sits in a closet (with Jonathan Tweet's signature on it, no less).

Smaller boxes have proved useful for Actual Play (I have all my Marvel Super Heroes maps [the best gaming maps ever, IMHO] in one box), but Everway's physical makeup is an impediment to use, I've found.

[geekspeakweekly]

If you really want to know what smething costs email Marc Miller of Far Future (makers of Traveller) and ask him.  His wife runs a business that specializes in getting quotes and finalizing packaging for any game.  I wish I could remember the direct address but I cannot.  Marc is a really nice guy and I am sure he can help you get to the right person.  

For my part I miss boxes and I just got the new box from SteamLogic and it is one of the coolest things I have seen.

geekspeakweekly.com

[szilard]

This is just speculation...

but it seems as though boxed sets are more often used for introductory games... and sell better in conventional stores (mall bookstores, toy stores, or whatever) than they do in gaming stores.

Things like "How to Host a Murder" (i.e., more mainstream roleplaying games) also tend to come in boxes.

Would it be safe to say that boxes (at least according to 'conventional wisdom' - whatever that is in this case) are more appropriate for introductory/mainstream games than they are for games targeted at those with roleplaying experience? Other than the evidence above, the fact that dice, character sheets, and other frills (that most experience roleplayers will either already have or will redo anyway) are included might support this...

Stuart