Great Taste, Less Deadly

[ShaneNINE]

Ok, no denying TROS is way super keen. Haven't had a chance to play it yet, but we've run a few mock combats and stuff. Very cool. Lots of fun to see one the combatants go down in some messy form or another.

But our style of play is a good bit more heroic than TROS allows. We're not talking D&D levels of heroic, but more heroic than TROS for sure. We also aren't too keen on cross referencing to hit tables every time there's a hit. The regular response to that, I've read, is that you only look up the tables a few times cause that's a few hits is all it takes to win a battle. But we don't want a few hits to end the battle so that means we'd be looking up to hit locations more often.

So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic? We'd prefer a simple hit point variation (oh the shame! but it's true, valhalla help us) with GM arbitrated hit locations, if possible. It's just a style of play thing...

Any suggestions? Tips? I don't know the rules that well so I ask for guidance. Thanks.

[Sneaky Git]

So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic?

Well.. Avoiding the issue of hit points altogether, you could simply allow for a more flexible interpretation of the SAs.  More SAs (for the PCs) results in more "heroic" results (ie. fighting multiple opponents, avoiding getting hit in the first place, etc.).

This solution, however, does not address the issue of chart referencing you mentioned.  I'll have to think on that some more.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. Getting hit is heroic?

What are you really after? Better ability to survive combat for characters? So that they fear combat less? If that's the case, give them more SAs. Or bump up their proficiencies if youwnat to make them more generically powerful.

Or do you want them actually able to take superhuman amounts of abuse? In that case, bump everyone's TO up by a few points.

However, having not played the game, I think that you are missing the fact that play tends to be very heroic in fact. I don't think that it needs any changes. In no case would I suggest going to any sort of Hit Point mechanic.

But then I think that just possibly you are trying to say somthing else entirely, but are not coming out with it well. Can you try to state the percieved problem better?

Mike

[ShaneNINE]

But then I think that just possibly you are trying to say somthing else entirely, but are not coming out with it well. Can you try to state the percieved problem better?

Ok, here goes...

Hmmm. Getting hit is heroic?

No. But surviving fights without horrible, crippling injuries is.

What are you really after? Better ability to survive combat for characters? So that they fear combat less? If that's the case, give them more SAs. Or bump up their proficiencies if you want to make them more generically powerful.

Yes and yes.

Or do you want them actually able to take superhuman amounts of abuse? In that case, bump everyone's TO up by a few points.

Nope, not superhuman amounts.

Two things:

1. I'm all for debilitating injuries, just not all the freakin' time. I'd like to reduce the frequency (that we saw with our little mock combat trials).

2. I don't want one good hit to decide the battle. Tip the scales, sure, but when it happens I'd rather the players think "better get out of here" instead of "I wonder what my next character will be like". However, I still would like the threat of one hit deaths.

However, having not played the game, I think that you are missing the fact that play tends to be very heroic in fact. I don't think that it needs any changes. In no case would I suggest going to any sort of Hit Point mechanic.

Very possible. Like I said, I don't know the rules very well.

If no hit points then how to do away with the reliance on the hit location tables? Do you think they could all be compressed on to one page or one mega table for easier reference? My players aren't goint to want to play if we gotta be looking up hit location tables every time there's a hit.

[Jake Norwood]

There's a nice uber-simplified damage table in the QS rules. You could also modifiy the generic damage table.

And it ISN'T that lethal in play...

Jake

[ShaneNINE]

QS = quick start?

Where is it!? Didn't see it at the TROS page. I'd be really interested in quick start rules.

[toli]

So I ask the experienced TROS gamers here: how to make TROS less lethal and a bit more heroic? We'd prefer a simple hit point variation (oh the shame! but it's true, valhalla help us) with GM arbitrated hit locations, if possible. It's just a style of play thing...

Any suggestions? Tips? I don't know the rules that well so I ask for guidance. Thanks.

If you want hit points, I'd add TO and HT.  That would give you about 8-12 hp for starting characters.  Just using these hp a character could take several big hits.  (Or perhaps ST, TO, EN & HT depending upon how many hit points you want).  You could use the hit location charts from Harn, RuneQuest or the like.  RuneQuest distributes hit points among locations, meaning that you can diable a limb without killing a character.

NT

[ShaneNINE]

RuneQuest distributes hit points among locations, meaning that you can diable a limb without killing a character.

That's an awesome idea! And I even have RQIII with me in my backpack (how'd you know?).

[Jake Norwood]

Okay, let's talk about a hero in a fight. Does he get hit? No, he doesn't. Getting hit several times and taking little scratches (ala movie-style Conan) is easily mimicked by a high TO in TROS. Problem solved.

But the thing is that it really isn't a heroic fight. Think of movies or books or anything that displays "heroic combat." What we're really seeing is a mook phenomenon...in other words, the PCs should have a lot more dice than their crappy mook opponents. Thus the PCs rarely or never get hit and lots of mooks die. This works perfectly in practice, I assure you. Your experience with mock combats pits (I assume) more-or-less equal characters against each other. Try *any* RPG...one of them will be dead and/or dismembered when it's over...it'll just take a lot longer.

So use mooks with half as many dice as your PCs in their CP, with no SAs, and then save the "equal" or superior opponent for the finale, where it's okay to seriously wound a PC.

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

As for the QS rules, they're in editing and playtesting right now, and should be available after thanksgiving.

Jake

[ShaneNINE]

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Well, thanks for giving the dead beast a few more whacks for my benefit. I certainly see your point (and Mike's, Sneaky's, and Toli's, too).

Maybe the points made in this thread should be summarized and put into a FAQ or a sticky note? I'm guessing a number of new players will ask you to beat the horse just a little more deader. x-)

[toli]

So use mooks with half as many dice as your PCs in their CP, with no SAs, and then save the "equal" or superior opponent for the finale, where it's okay to seriously wound a PC.

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Jake

I'd have to agree with this entirely.  Picking NPCs of the right calibre is what will really set the character of the campaign.  If NPCs are invariably weak, there can be a lot of fighting....if NPCs are dangerous...well then...

The only reason to use HP IMO is to greatly simplify mechanics.  This is a legitimate goal but would seem to lose part of the interesting bit of TROS (for me).  It won't necessarily affect the "Heroic" aspect of the gaming although the amount of HP might.


NT

[Jake Norwood]

Good grief...I feel like I've been wailing on this poor dead horse for a year now...

Well, thanks for giving the dead beast a few more whacks for my benefit. I certainly see your point (and Mike's, Sneaky's, and Toli's, too).

Maybe the points made in this thread should be summarized and put into a FAQ or a sticky note? I'm guessing a number of new players will ask you to beat the horse just a little more deader. x-)

Yeah, it sure does kick a lot for a dead horse... (*grin*).

That's an excellent idea for an essay for the web page. Any takers?

-Jake

[Lucien Black]

That's an excellent idea for an essay for the web page. Any takers?

I'll consider it Jake, but no promises at the moment.  Going to be a bit tricky without my book.

I do want to comment on the concept of heroism though:

I'm a lover of both fantasy and science fiction, and the most heroic actions I have ever seen in these genres included those times when the hero had basically been beaten into the ground, possibly even losing the use of a limb or two, is obviously thoroughly exhausted and weakened... but comes right back for more, and dishes it out three times as hard.  Examples to consider (off the top of my head):  Duncan MacCleod (sp?) in the last fight with Jacob Kell in Endgame has just had his butt handed to him, and then finds out that Katherine is dead (he believes).  He doesn't quite, but comes back.

In the Princess Bride, Inigo Montoya is seriously injured (wasn't one of his arms actually useless at that point?  been a while) by his six-fingered man... but comes back to make the Count beg.

Spider-Man (from the comics) has more than once been beaten to within an inch of his life, and always comes back... sometimes barely able to stand.  He's been buried alive, and driven over the edge of insanity (literally.. he lost his mind for a while and no longer even identified himself as Peter Parker, just "Spider"... his thought bubbles were a little confusing at that point), but he's come back.

Ok, so maybe it's a little unfair of me to use superhuman examples, but they're what popped into my head.  Anyway, this isn't to say that to be heroic one must be hit or nearly dead, only that it isn't unheroic if one does get seriously injured.  Isn't overcoming a handicap one of the greatest acts of heroism?

That's all.  I'll shut up now.

Lucien

[Lance D. Allen]

I'll add my two cents in here. Since encountering TRoS and the awesome SA mechanics, it's really flavored my view of many things. Lucien mentions the Spiderman comics, but where it really hit home for me was watching the Spiderman movie. The final battle between the Green Goblin and Spidey has Spiderman pushed past the limits of his endurance, beat all to hell, and basically lost.

Then GG has to gloat about he's going to hurt MJ, and Spidey comes back with new surges of energy and beats the Goblin to an exoskeletoned pulp. Am I the only one who thought they heard this little dialogue in the background?

Peter(Player of Spiderman): Seneschal, I think this warrants kicking in Spidey's Passion: Love for Mary Jane - 5 and Drive: Defend the Weak: 4.

Seneschal: Sounds good to me. What are you going to do?

Peter: I'm gonna kick his ass.

It doesn't get much more heroic than that.

[Mike Holmes]

Bingo, Lance.

Lucien, too. I always refer to the contest between Harrison Ford, and Mel Brooks for the title of "most beat up artist ever". The truely heroic do get all battered.

That said, this does argue for wounds that can be overcome. How about allowing SAs to be used to cancel out pain as well as adding to your CP? That seems to be what's going on with Spidey in that climactic scene.

Call it a "cinematic" rule.

Mike