Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Started by Irmo, December 04, 2002, 07:57:33 PM
Quote from: Mike HolmesIrmo,Sounds like standard deconstructionist talk. Next you'll be telling us that the Forge shouldn't use English, as that biases it's production in a way that makes it less useful for people who don't have English as their first language.
QuoteThe only problem with this sort of analysis is that discourse requires participants, and there is no way to cease bringing your bias. So, if we are to have a Forge at all, with real participants, we have to start with what we have no matter how imperfect, and go from there. If you don't like the jargon, or any other biases that we bring, then, well, sorry. Nothing we can do about it, without ceasing to be The Forge.
QuoteTo suggest that we chuck the specific language of the site is as non-sensical as trying to make all Americans stop speaking English (perhaps we shoud be speaking Navaho). In the end we're still using language, and no matter what we'll be just as bad-off as we were when we started.
Quote from: Mike HolmesThe only problem with this sort of analysis is that discourse requires participants, and there is no way to cease bringing your bias. So, if we are to have a Forge at all, with real participants, we have to start with what we have no matter how imperfect, and go from there. If you don't like the jargon, or any other biases that we bring, then, well, sorry. Nothing we can do about it, without ceasing to be The Forge.
Quote from: IrmoAnd that's precisely where we disagree. As for starting with what we have, I suggest you follow my example and check the memberlist. The Forge does NOT use what it has, because a large number of people are not contributing or barely contributing. And coincidentally, members of specific cultural groups seem to be contributing very little as a rule. And yes, there is a way to limit the effect of bias. It's called tolerance, or broad-mindedness.
Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon2) He said, "About 50-75% of the points treated as given and practically universally accepted by those contributing in the varius threads about gamers I have not experienced as a given (or only in the very early days) as a roleplayer in a different cultural background. Now you can feel free to just consider your private experience to be universally applicable." He attacks Forge members for thinking that their experiences are universally applicable, but then flaunts his as perhaps more applicable. I say that when the majority of experiences expressed by a community larger than you are different from your own, you just might be the "odd bird," and should perhaps learn from others' experiences.
Quote3) He said, "As for starting with what we have, I suggest you follow my example and check the memberlist. The Forge does NOT use what it has, because a large number of people are not contributing or barely contributing." We do not 'have' these people. If I was an active member of every community I've ever registered on, I'd need a 48-hour day.
QuoteAnd then, would someone please get this thread back on topic? We've wasted enough time and energy here.
Quote from: IrmoClinton, that does it for me. How you can accuse me of flaunting my experience as 'perhaps more applicable' when I explicitly said that one should look at the individual factors that made one person experience one thing and another the other is beyond me.... you once again completely ignore the fact that my experiences were made under different circumstances, and thus whether there are more or less people here with different experiences has no impact whatsoever on whether my experiences are representative for the circumstances I made them in.
Quote from: Clinton R. Nixon- I think the Forge is what it is: the collective thoughts and input of its current active members, and their biases and wishes. I think that people who like this collective will come, and those who don't... well, to be honest, I don't care. For $15 and change a month, they can start their own site.- Irmo thinks it should cater to a group outside of those active members and actively try to expand its viewpoints to match those that aren't members of the Forge now. (See my definition of members above.)I could simplify this further by asking "Is the Forge a service (Irmo's view, perceived by me) or an institution?" (I actually prefer the term 'privilege,' but people get hung up on that.)Am I right on this? I hope that by clarifying the argument into a few simple sentences, we can all understand it a bit more. (I'm not an academic and prefer not to be. We can discuss whether the Forge is a forum for academic discourse on role-playing later.)
Quote from: Clinton R. NixonI could simplify this further by asking "Is the Forge a service (Irmo's view, perceived by me) or an institution?" (I actually prefer the term 'privilege,' but people get hung up on that.)
Quote from: Mike HolmesIrmo,I've overstated my case to make a point, to be sure. I extended the argument past what you intended just to make a point by displaying what the logical conclusion is to that vein of argument. In that way, yes, I was intentionally addressing points that you had not made. I've been over this entire debate with deconstructionist scholars quite a bit (living in Madison, WI for eight years made that unavoidable).
QuoteI did read your post thouroughly, Irmo. And my post was in response to your attack on the use of specific language that Rich suggests is key to the whole "Discourse Community" thing. Deconstructionists often use the argument of bias to show that a particular use of language invalidates a discourse, somehow, by alienating some portion of the populace (I can quote works if you like). My point is only that you can't be rid of bias. Deconstructionists actually admit this. In the end they admit that even deconstruction itself is subject to bias (see Deridas). And as such, throwing out the internal language of The Forge is some attempt to improve it resolves nothing. In the end we still have a language that is just as flawed as the original, but without the benefits.
QuoteBesides, if you want to use "plain english" there's nothing stopping you. I try to do that all the time with participants who I feel are not prepared to talk in the language that I have adopted as a Forge member. Which is to say that the idea that we are somehow insular, prejudiced, or exclusionary just doesn't hold water. As I've said, I can't help but bring my biases to the table, but that does not mean that I can't also be open-minded. Now, that's a relative term, and you may think me close-minded by some standard. But the only comparison I can make is to look at other sites that attempt to do the same thing, more or less, as we do here.
QuoteMy "feeling" on this matter is as empirical as your claim that we mishandle 60% or more of posters (I could claim that my larger participation, and longer presence gave me more access to data). Even if your claim were true, it would still be better than elsewhere, I think. Is it "good enough"? That's always going to be a subjective matter, and in the end the objective assessment will come in terms of people helped. I think that we've got a good track record so far, even if imperfect (testimonials have been proffered). I see The Forge as a community devoted to it's principles, which include an open acceptance of new ideas through debate. And that's as good a start as I think you can have.
QuoteIt seems to me that the goal of The Forge is emerging as "helping people have better RPG experiences". On other sites where people go to get such help, usually; very little most of the time, and when they do, the help seems misguided. And that is in part because of a lack of agreed upon definitions to terms. As such I cannot see the Forge changing the way we do business much. Sure, we can all try to be more open-minded. That's always good advice. But open-mided doesn't mean failing to apply critical thinking and debate. As such, that should continue to be the modus operandi here.
QuoteAs to the number of registered participants who do not respond, you could also point to the probably vast number of guests that lurk without ever registering. But this is just traffic on the street. A person who has registered and left has probably done so just because they don't have the time to participate. Like Clinton, I'm registered on about fifty sites, and I only regularly post to three.
QuoteP.S. I gather you are not from Dallas. Would you care to divulge your country of origin so that we can put your other comments in context (apollogies if you've already stated this, and I'd missed it).
Quote from: IrmoA specific language may facilitate its goal 90% of the time. But if it's truly the goal that is important, that means that the other 10% of the time, one has to be ready to throw language out temporarily and look at the contents first.
QuoteWell, I can for example look at your discussion with Raven in the "Self-image (split from Gay / Gamer)" thread in the RPG theory forum, and conclude that the two of you have delivered a potential example of what I pointed at in the longer post: Arguing mainly based on personal experience, and taking contrary experience as a freak accident of nature,
QuoteCould you please cite where I actually made such a claim? The only percentage to which I referred was the degree of circumstances taken as a given in the individual threads which I have not experienced as a given.
QuoteCritical thinking requires the questioning of one's own experiences as well. And that hasn't been the modus operandi. Critical thinking requires the questioning of whether one's experiences are broadly applicable or not. That hasn't been the case in many instances.
QuoteThat is all good and fine, but you picked those three, over the others, for specific reasons, probably. For some reasons, you considered participating in these more worthwhile than in the others. Which is precisely what i think has been overlooked by both Clinton and you.
QuoteGermany (with the occasional stay in France and a good stock in original French RPGs)
Quote from: ClayLet's calm down a little folks and stop wearing our hearts on our sleeves. I've probably peed in this pool enough for the whole day, without anyone needing to add to it.