Question on Different Types of Magic

[prophet118]

its cool, dont worry about it, i am all about fairness in games... and while i give my players the same advantages as my villians, i general think of combinations, or other terms and abilities that my players do not, then again, with the average player in my group not knowing anything about martial arts, i have a leg up on them there as well (mainly when visualizing combat and how to be effective)


i actually have another group that i play with every other saturday, everyone in that group (except my wife) are martial artists... so its really fun..

i find though that i do have to be careful, in a palladium game i ran, i used a completely innocent technique, and ending up killing one of the players in a single hit, they moaned about that one, because they felt i hadnt given them the same oppurtunities as the bad guy... so later on, i went ahead and ask if anyone wanted to trade in their Hand To Hand fighting skills, for an actual martial arts, which would have likely given them access to that certain technique... they all refused...

so in some ways, they kinda screwed themselves...i learned a valuable lesson though, see i was playing Heroes Unlimited, and i threw in some elements from Ninjas and Superspies, and Mystic China.... well they hated that whole thing, they felt that the bad guy was way out of their league, simply because i used 3 books to create him (race from Heroes, class from mystic china, and martial arts from ninjas...) i will agree that i didnt give them that option, but the character came out worse than they did.. mainly because i didnt give him full bonuses from all 3, i gave him only 1/4 of the bonuses he shoud have had

[Vanguard]

What I love about the sorcery system is its adaptabilty.  The varied ways in which disciplines may be used and combined allows for all forms of magic-users types.  

The hedge-witch, who's magic is mostly knowledge of herblore and medicines, would have maybe one level in only one discipline. Thus her spells would be mostly indirect, affecting and enhanciong her potions in someway, or for dealing with spirits and curses perhaps (a la Evil Queen in Snow White).

The typical D&D wizard, who's education is highly formalised and instituionalised, would have knowledge of more disciplines and at level 2 in some cases. They would still require, however, the use of components in many instances in order to achiee spectacular sorcery.  Sculpture and movement on a flamable powder, thus causing it to ignite and travel as a fearsome fireball.  

The true mage however, the one in possession of most disciplines at high levels, has such awareness of his environment and control over it, that he may evoke any effect purely on the basis of his sorcery.  An Uber-fireball conjured into being through might require the ritualised binding of a dozen fire-daemons / sprites / elementals, and raining them down on some hapless city, engulfing the whole thing.  

TROS needs a little refining, I reckon, but at its core is a superb tool for translating magic into game-terms.  Basically, I ask what the PC wants to do, then we figure out how to make it work.  

Take care

[prophet118]

thats usually the best way to do it... like in the white wolf game "Mage: The Ascension", the whole casting section starts with "what do you wanna do, do you have the spheres to do it, find out the spheres, find out dice pool, cast"

[Lucien Black]

BrianL wrote:

BTW - I like the rush of power idea, get your slaves addicted to using the magic so you know they'll always come back for more. Easy to do with Conquer 2 as well. And as for undead, well, OBAM has rules for that, and yeah, they would fit nicely in with what we've discussed so far, especially if the sorcerer uses the "special" rule from chapter 7... :-)

Yea, the addiction is pretty much where I was going with that :).  And BTW Brian, all your comments about OBAM are making me actually want to buy the book, spending money I don't have and can't afford (I originally planned to wait a while before getting it, probably after TFOB).  So stop it!  This temptation is hard to resist. :)

On the debate or whatever about when the villian has time to be a villian (assuming making people in addicts and age dumps isn't villianous enough), that's what lackeys are for.  I guess I assumed from the start it would be a mastermind/manipulator type anyway.

And as for PCs doing this... well, there is of course the point of figuring out how, but also, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander (cliche alert), well, send some heroes after the PCs.  Just let the player know beforehand that this is a possibility, so he doesn't feel you screwed him unfairly when you do.

Oh, and about the lackeys:  assuming they're basically good people, if they didn't know what they were getting into at first, but now are having a hard time fighting the addiction, what's the right thing to do as the hero?  do they really deserve to die?  If they try killing you (looking guilty and ashamed as they do), do you kill them, or search for another option?  Just an example of potential moral dilemmas involved in the entire scenario.

Lucien

[Brian Leybourne]

Yea, the addiction is pretty much where I was going with that :).  And BTW Brian, all your comments about OBAM are making me actually want to buy the book, spending money I don't have and can't afford (I originally planned to wait a while before getting it, probably after TFOB).  So stop it!  This temptation is hard to resist. :)

Oh, and about the lackeys:  assuming they're basically good people, if they didn't know what they were getting into at first, but now are having a hard time fighting the addiction, what's the right thing to do as the hero?  do they really deserve to die?  If they try killing you (looking guilty and ashamed as they do), do you kill them, or search for another option?  Just an example of potential moral dilemmas involved in the entire scenario.

It's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...

Sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Yeah, the good old staple moral dilemma. Obviously they're not really bad people, they don't want to be killing me. Do I go for knockout or debilitating blows, safer for them but far more dangerous for me, or do I let self preservation get in the way of what's right? Hmm.. good opportunity for SA use if you have Conscience I guess.

I'm liking this a lot, it will certainly be an important part of my next campaign.

Brian.

[spunky]

ok... so how would i go about using elemental magic, shielding magic....i think thats the only two i need to know about

Er, this may be a huge simplification...

Couldn't you define a spell per the rules given, but create "styles" of magic that function kind of like SAs?  A "druid" for example, could receive a bonus to their SP of 1-5 dice, so long as they were "nature" oriented spells.  This could be balanced by a sorcerous flaw that penalizes their SP when casting "non-natural" spells, or even prohibits them entirely.

The mechanics that define the spell, establish the TN and aging cost would remain exactly the same.  And so long as the character remained within their defined realm, they still have enormous room to improvise.  The druid described above can do a hell of a lot more than any druid in D&D...

Philip

[Lucien Black]

It's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...

Sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Grrrrr.......  

Yeah, the good old staple moral dilemma. Obviously they're not really bad people, they don't want to be killing me. Do I go for knockout or debilitating blows, safer for them but far more dangerous for me, or do I let self preservation get in the way of what's right? Hmm.. good opportunity for SA use if you have Conscience I guess.

And if it happens to be a friend of yours (NPC or PC).... now you really have issues.  If the sorcerer has gone really heavy into cult tactics of brainwashing, then the friend may not WANT to leave, or may be afraid to, or may want to, but not want to at the same time, or may deny that the sorcerer is evil, ignoring evidence to the contrary.... excellent RP opportunity if it's a PC who's been sucked in.  Done right, there should be lots of opportunity for SA use, regardless of the whether it's Conscience, Passion ("loyalty to friends" or something), or Drive.

Personally, I have no intention of mentioning this concept to the other Seneschals around here.  I want to run this idea! ;)

Lucien

[Brian Leybourne]

It's funny you should say that, because there's this part in OBAM where...

Sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Grrrrr.......

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Heh, after all this hype I hope you actually *like* OBAM, otherwise I'm going to look really stupid :-)  

And if it happens to be a friend of yours (NPC or PC).... now you really have issues.  If the sorcerer has gone really heavy into cult tactics of brainwashing, then the friend may not WANT to leave, or may be afraid to, or may want to, but not want to at the same time, or may deny that the sorcerer is evil, ignoring evidence to the contrary.... excellent RP opportunity if it's a PC who's been sucked in.  Done right, there should be lots of opportunity for SA use, regardless of the whether it's Conscience, Passion ("loyalty to friends" or something), or Drive.

Personally, I have no intention of mentioning this concept to the other Seneschals around here.  I want to run this idea! ;)

Yup, all good thoughts. That's one cool advantage of TROS magic over more static systems like D&D et al, any concept you can think of you can translate into the magic system, and pretty easily. Try doing "addictive cultisim featuring transerred magical energy with soul stealing and indenture" in D&D :-)

Brian.

[prophet118]

ok... so how would i go about using elemental magic, shielding magic....i think thats the only two i need to know about

Er, this may be a huge simplification...

Couldn't you define a spell per the rules given, but create "styles" of magic that function kind of like SAs?  A "druid" for example, could receive a bonus to their SP of 1-5 dice, so long as they were "nature" oriented spells.  This could be balanced by a sorcerous flaw that penalizes their SP when casting "non-natural" spells, or even prohibits them entirely.

The mechanics that define the spell, establish the TN and aging cost would remain exactly the same.  And so long as the character remained within their defined realm, they still have enormous room to improvise.  The druid described above can do a hell of a lot more than any druid in D&D...

Philip

well like i said, im not really looking to create schools of magic, ya know?, the thread is about different kinds of magic...spells if you would... like casting a fireball, or casting an armor spell, or casting other things... the book gives us some examples, but i wanted to know what people thought about the vageries, and some things they have made... surely they have made spells..

basically i need to know what people think is feasible

[spunky]

well like i said, im not really looking to create schools of magic, ya know?, the thread is about different kinds of magic...spells if you would... like casting a fireball, or casting an armor spell, or casting other things... the book gives us some examples, but i wanted to know what people thought about the vageries, and some things they have made... surely they have made spells..

basically i need to know what people think is feasible

I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).  

One of the things sorcerers did in RuneQuest (the Avolon Hill ed, which has variable spells), is maintain armor spells indefinitely (meaning when the old spell expires, stop what you're doing and cat the new one).   In TROS,  that means any time you run into a sorcerer, they're protected by at least 8pts of armor, if not more.  And a well armored sorcerer may have the time to cast more powerful spells, forgoing defensive actions and trusting to their armor to buy them time.

Not a new spell, but certainly a different use from traditional (D&D) rpgs...

P

[Bob Richter]

I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).  

P

Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.

Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)

[spunky]

I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).  

P

Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.

Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)

Quite true... I'm looking at Smite as the model for an "instant death spell" at TN 12.  Blood to Molten Lead has a lower Volume,  but adding the Movement vagary would raise the TN back to 12.  Of course, you could drop the TN by 1 by making it a "touch" spell.

As far as game balance, even when formalized, the spell takes 5 rounds to cast (4 using Touch range, but then you have to hit your target).  Unless the Sorcerer has some serious protection, odds are he/she won't get the spell off, and there's still the target's SA saving roll...

Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen.  That's why they make GM screens...   ;)

P

[Jake Norwood]

Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen.

Don't think I'm misinterpereting you, but there is some flaw with this in TROS standards. It's as much that player's story as yours. Now, if you're talking about a munchkin that's out to screw everyone...that's one thing. But if it's because you and the player disagree on where the story could/should go, then there's another, more crucial, issue at stake.

Jake

[prophet118]

I think you can do pretty much damn near anything, like transforming a victim's blood to molten lead (T3/R2/V2/D0/Sculpture3, Vision 3), TN11; victim saves as Smite [p. 135] or dies instantly in agony; source U.K. LeGuin).  

P

Hm. I don't know if I'd allow that in my game. Sculpture wouldn't seem to be able to alter the temperature of a substance. Altering something's elemental nature....eh. Maybe.

Seems like you'd need at least a Movement component to heat it up (if you actually wanted it MOLTEN...)

well molton or not, have lead for blood would suck.....lol... it may be more realitic to say iron though, since we are a carbon based life form, with a certain amount of iron in our blood to begin with..i dont know how much lead we have..lol, though i know its not supposed to be good for us

i like the example that spunky gave though, it lets me know that people are thinking, and getting into the system, which is always good... as a side note, my friday mage game may either change to using the TROS rules base, or i'll switch everything over to it... better blanced sorcery system, and the vageries kick more ass than the spheres any day..lol

[prophet118]

Of course, I've always been of the mind that, if a player's action is going to completely screw up my story, as GM I'll find a way to make sure that it doesn't happen.  That's why they make GM screens...   ;)
P

be careful there... the very nature of TROS is a screwy thing, besides sorcerors seem to have been designed with the forthought of possibly screwing up games... what do you do when your very well laid plan goes completely wrong when the sorceror teleports in, assassinates the bad guy, and splits.... well ya go with it..lol

"the best laid plans of mice and men"

basically the best plan isnt usually going to work, so it something drastic happens, go with it, it gives the bad guys a reason to hunt the pc down... not that they needed a valid reason innitially...lol