alternative magic systems

[tauman]

Okay, I hope this isn't blasphemy, but I've been thinking about ways to incorporate other magic systems into TROS. Don't get me wrong, I really like the current magic system, but it does make magic-using characters quite powerful, and to play certain styles really requires more limits. Anyway, my thoughts...

1. Vancian/Dying-Earth type system. I know D&D was based on this, but I'm thinking of something much closer to the books (yes, I know there's a game based on Dying Earth, but I don't really like it). While the most powerful Mages in his books were pretty much beyond harm from a swordsman, at the lower power levels (e.g. Cugel), the balance was quite different.

2. Ars Magica type system. This would actually be quite close to the current system, except more information on the development of Magi in TROS would need to be worked out, and their power would need to be decreased somewhat. Ironically, Gogs (for those who have never played, Grogs are mundanes who act basically as bodyguards for Magi) would be even more important to prevent a Magus from being cut down with by a "mere" mundane. OTOH, Grog turnover might be quite a bit higher.

3. A "toned down" system. Basically, just a re-working of the current system (or a similar, skill-chance based system) to bring the power of magic down to par with mundanes.

4. A magic system to fit the world as described by Fritz Leiber (Fafhrd & Grey Mouser in Nehwon), although a lot of work would need to be done to fill in the many gaps (what is a rank 0 sorcerer vs. a rank 1 sorcerer?). Of course other authors come to mind...

Note, I'm not talking about "Spell-Point" systems (I know we're talking fantasy, but explain to me what a spell-point is, beyond being a game mechanic). Also, don't take this as a dislike of the given magic system--I like it a lot, and find it to be very well thought-out. However, it doesn't fit every desired style of play, and the overall feel of the game is so good that I just like the idea of adapting it different styles of play. The irony is that in making combat so much more realistic, non-combat playing time is given so much more meaning...

Any thoughts?

--tauman

[Jaif]

I had considered using talislanta's magic system (4th ed) as a substitute for one of the worlds I was considering.

-Jeff

[Henry Fitch]

I offered to type up and post an Ars Magica magic conversion a while back, but nobody bit. Maybe I will later, though.

Now I think about it, I'd want something creepier and more ritualistic than AM. Maybe even something like the Rituals and Tilts from Unknown Armies.

[Jaif]

Btw, I've always felt that what makes Fantasy different is magic.  If your view of a Fantasy world is different than the one in the book, it makes a whole lot of sense that the magic system doesn't fit in.

-Jeff

[tauman]

I'm not familiar with Unknown Armies, but I'd definitely be interested in an Ars Magica conversion.

Once you accept the "instant death" possibilities of TROS, I think it really lends itself to many of the settings people want to run, and I think my desire to explore other magic systems is sort of born from my desire to run games in particular settings. One thing I noticed in the past when I tried to run games based on settings from novels, was how badly this worked when run from a system with "heroic combat" (i.e. where I character can battle 10 cancon-fodder creatures with near-impunity). So many of the actions of protagonists in fantasy novels are based on meeting or avoiding particular threats at particular times and trying to stay alive, and they often just don't come up in most FRPGs. After all, imagine a DM running a Tolkien-based campaign where a party is fleeing through Moria. Now, in AD&D, no mid-level or higher party is going to flee against "mere" orcs for long. And if the Balrog is added to the equation, a party will either be destroyed, or battle the Balrog while killing orcs by the dozen. With combat in TROS, you bet your rear-end that everyone is going to be running like hell at the first sign of any number of Orcs greater than a handful, and even a few Orcs could spell doom for a party (and the Balrog is just too terrible to think about)...

Combat can be modelled on "real" sword fighting and other "real" and historical melee actions, but magic does not have a model in reality. Looking to novels can help a gaming group form a cohesive picture of how magic works. For example, if everyone in your gaming group has read Michael Moorcock's Elric series, and you base your campaign on that setting, everyone is likely to have developed an intuitive feeling for how magic should work in that setting.

Hmmm...I think I got off track in this post...

--tauman

[Jake Norwood]

Off track, maybe, but I really like where you're going. Tell us more...

Jake

[Draygen]

I'm sorry to here that no one bit on you idea of an Ars Magica conversion for TROS becuase I have been considering the same possiblity. But of cousre I'm new to the forum so I missed that dicussion.
I personally have been considering using gifts to allow players to use somewhat magical abilities. So far all I require is for them to take a higher racial possition normally C for human. Then they can take abilities like animal speech, or in the case of a bardic character magical songs. Of course each special gift has it's limitations.

[Henry Fitch]

Off the top of my head, what I'd do is something like this...

You can take levels of Verbs and Nouns just like you would Vagaries. So Bob the Sorcerer might have Creo 4, Perdo 2, and Mentem 3, for instance.

Your dice pool for a spell is equal to your Kaa (or one of those atts, I can't keep'em straight) + the relevant Verb + the relevant Noun.

The TN for the spell is determined by the extremity of its effects. There will be charts for this.

Casting Time will be... well, I dunno how I'd get the number, but I know how I'd get the units. There's a little chart, like this:

Seconds
Minutes
Hours
Days
Weeks

If you have both the Verb and the Noun for the spell, and you've Formalized it, you get your Casting Time in seconds. Not having it formalized bumps you down the chart one step. So does not having the verb, and so does not having the noun. So if you haven't Formalized and you're attempting it with unmodified Kaa, you get your Casting Time in weeks. Certain things, like big groups of cultists or very rare components, might bump you back up the chart.

Actually, maybe the Casting Time number is just 10 - TN. That might work.

[Durgil]

I would very much like to see an Ars Magica cross-over, but how would you acclimate the fatigue accumulation of AM with a system like TRoS that uses aging rules?

[tauman]

Reading the "High-Powered RoS, Oriental Styles, etc. (play report)" topic was interesting, as my deviations on this topic were wandering that way too...

Along with alternative magic systems, all sorts of ideas for home-brewed changes. Taking my example of a Moorcock-based campaign based on Elric's world (forgive me if you haven't read the series):

Most magic was conjuration and summoning, so a set of rules for summoning demons and elemental creatures (not to Kelmaine, Elenoin, and other creatures) would need to be developed. Summonings seemed to cause Elric great strain, sometimes to the point of exhaustion, so I think that exhaustion-based magic, along with rules for what kinds of components are required in demon summoning rituals (and what sort of promises might have to be made), along with summoning failure rules. I don't think this would be too hard (I expect most of the work would be creating statistics for these creatures).

Magic items existed--perhaps they weren't common, but definitely several items were featured in the stories. While I wouldn't be in a hurry to hand out Stormbringer or Mournblade to the party, in a world this dangerous a party will get ahold of magic items eventually (if only for survival). So I guess the question is how to model a magic sword...

A campaign based in Melnibone or the Young Kingdoms would be about flavor. Certainly, anyone who has read the series would know about the ancestral hatred of Elenoin and Grahluk (perhaps giving a sorcerer a percentage chance of knowing and remembering how to summon Grahluk, should Elenoin ever be encountered). Or perhaps the characters will run into a guardian demon with a Wardpact against swords. If you read (and liked) the series you probably remember what I'm talking about, and so everyone who reads the series has a set of shared general assumptions about how things work.

Just make sure you remember your High Melnibonean dictionary and remind your party to avoid the Olab at all costs...


--tauman

[Brian Leybourne]

Sounds very like the demon/summoning system in Ron Edwards' Sorcerer...

[tauman]

I've never seen the Sorcerer system, but from what I've heard it does sound similar to the magic in the Elric novels (though perhaps not as "epic").

[Draygen]

So Fitch your suggesting a merging of the TROS sorcery system at least the basics with the layout and concept of Ars Magica. It has possiblities..

My idea was a bit different I was thinking of using the Ars Magica system and adding in the concepts of TROS damage, casting time and combat to step away from the simplified Ars Magica combat system. Essentially I wanted to take the TROS combat system and use it in Ars Magica. I think both games are designed well and can benefit from a number of different mergings all depending on how you want to run your game. My biggest road blocks are of course casting time and the fact that my current combat model is a bit inflexible according to TROS standards due to the static attributes of Ars Magica.

[John Resotko]

OK, now that I've read the discussion to date, I feel like I need to make a contribution to the whole on a more macro-level.  

This may go more toward plot development as Seneshal than actual game mechanics, but I think it's important when developing a magic system to build from the roots.  Put simply: where does magic in your gameworld come from?  Is it a finite resource (as in Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away" and "The Magic May Return"  stories), or is it a natural occurring phenomenna like gravity,  nuclear attraction, and murphy's law? (evil grin)  I do like the magic system in TROS, butI agree with my brother tauman that your individual gameworld, and how you decide to represent magic, will have an effect on how you implement those rules (or how you modify them with your own house rules.)  Some important questions you have to determine before you work up that final set of rules, IMHO, include

How common or rare is magic?

How easy or difficult is it to use magic, or obtain it?

How easy or difficult is it to imbed magic in items so "mundanes" can use them?

How well garded are the secrets of magic by it's practitioners?

How well received are magic users in the world, and in specific areas?

I think the core rules of TROS do a good job to mostly satisfy these questions, while leaving any Seneshal plenty of rules to tweak things to their liking (or to the liking of their players and the world they want to run.)

It may not be obvious that the answers to these "plot and setting questions" will help drive mechanics in all areas.  In the original RPG Ars Magica rules, the social setting of magic directly drove the development of some of the rules.  In systems like Rolemaster,  magic is just another skill attached to classes,  and the only thing to be determined is the "cost" to the character to learn it based on their chosen profession.

Fantasy novels can guide somewhat,  but there will always be examples in classic fantasy that don't exactly fit the mold.  In Fritz Leiber's stories,  the Grey Mouser, a wicked swordsman and thief, new exactly ONE spell, which he was mostly afraid to use.  In Zelazny's "Dilvish the Damned" stories, the former general Dilvish didn't know any small or apprentice spells,  only the Awful Sayings which were hell to cast,  and hellish in their power.  

In the end, magic, like all volitile substances, must be added with care...

(It's good to talk with you about these things again tauman, I've missed our talks on such imaginary topics.)

-/John

[Unsane]

I really like the idea of converting UA's magic system (of one wanted less powerful magic).  It wouldn't be too difficult to transplant the rituals and tilts (as mentioned before), but I think it might also be cool to have some of the obsession based schools of magic - and of course avatars.  Naturally, most of the schools of magic, at least, would have to be eliminated or modified - while I could see an epideromancy - type school based on ritual mutilation, I can't see videomancy working too well.  I do think most of the schools could be converted - many of them would probably be early evolution type things.  Some of them would probably only be available if one lived in a certain culture (i.e. a derivative of narco - alchemy, maybe modified for a more divinatory feel, probably wouldn't be as available in the more european settings, but much more common in places where drugs are used for rituals).  

Obviously, there would be some different schools - based on things that were more common then than now (maybe one on exploration - a lot tends to be more unknown in more fantasty settings).

Many of the avatars would also need to be retooled, though not as much as the schools.  

I also like the ideas of demons in UA, though I might just keep the feel to them (obsessed, will screw over anyone in their way, and never very nice).  Or one could adapt spirit type beings (like Wraith: The Oblivion) where the only thing left is a psyche and the SA's that drove them in life.  

This is probably really off topic, and I'm rambling, so I'll stop.