Catalog

[quozl]

As someone interested in putting a game into the catalog but not able to go to Gencon, I like the looks of Phil's idea.  What are everyone else's ideas for the catalog?

[Michael S. Miller]

10,000 minimum.

Egads! That's nearly half of all GenCon attendees! I foresee thousands upon thousands left over after the con, even if we leave them out on tables for anyone to pick up. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean this catalogue ought to be designed with an eye towards "this will be around for years to come" more than "this will be around specifically for GenCon '03"

* How much will it cost?

I would expect $1,500 to $2,000 should do things. Exact costs, numbers, and size could be decided after we get some idea of how much money everyone can devote to the project.

Okay, so if you have 20 games represented, that's $100 per game, right? While this project does offer scads of exposure, it seems kinda pricey from a site that has an essay right up front on making your game for less that $100 for everything. Most PDF-sellers would have to sell 10-12 copies to pay for cost of inclusion. Of course, with 10,000 copies, that might be reasonable.

Sorry for the negativity, but the scale of this project surprised me. It will take some time to get used to the idea.

[philreed]

10,000 is not a very large run for marketing material. If we assume 15 people are involved and we send each person 300 copies for them to distribute at local cons and such, that leaves 5500 copies for GenCon.

And I want this to be something of value to people one year from now. That's why I was saying include things like "lite" versions of games and supplementary material.

As to money, I've already said I'd be willing to put in $400. I understand there are some out there would could only spend $25 or so. That's why space in the catalog would be given out based on amount of money spent. If someone spends $100 on the catalog I expect them to have a larger presence than someone who spends $25.

Something to think about: How much does the booth space cost at GenCon? Hotel? Travel? Food? These are all expenses of having a precense at a large game show. The catalog is just one more expense and, I understand, that it isn't for everyone.

If there will be a catalog in time for GenCon a project lead needs to be selected. That lead's first assignment would be to track down and get commitments from interested parties. The second assignment would be to secure funds. (Does the Forge have a centralized account for cooperative efforts such as the GenCon booth?) Only then can real work begin. Until funds are secured all that can happen is lots of dreaming.

[philreed]

If price is what's making everyone nervous I can think of one cheaper option (and probably more if I think hard about it).

It should be a simple matter to locate a newspaper printer in Indianapolis. We then work with that printer to have a tabloid-sized catalog printed on newsprint. This will be a lot less flashy but a lot cheaper.

In my dark past (god, magazine and newspaper design could be fun at times) we frequently printed tabloid stuff. The cost was always low (I'm remembering $500 for 30,000 copies . . . but we were probably getting a large price break since we printed every week).

We would then need someone capable of driving to the press and picking up the printed tabloids.

These would have a shorter shelf life (newsprint just can't handle light) but they would be cheaper.

[Valamir]

Here are my thoughts:

Re a general Indie Catalog:
I think that's a great idea, and one that ideally could be done annually or even semi annually just as a way of getting alot of indie print an pdf publishers together in one place that could be circulated.  Definitely worth trying.  To work, I think someone would actually have to take ownership of this and run it like a zine complete with figuring out all involved costs, distribution members and soliciting the advertisers (publishers) who'll ultimately foot the bill for it.  However, I'm not sure that this would be what I'd want for the Adept+ booth at GenCon (although I think it might be a great thing to hand out in general at the con).

What I'd like for the booth is really something fairly nice:  well laid out pretty pamplet (I'm envisioning 8 1/2x11 folded on the long edge...whatever that's called) with just the indie games that are actually being SOLD at the booth with one page each (ideally 1 leaf front and back even a color page) in the pamplet, and then a couple of pages in the back listing the freebies that are available.

In otherwords something that can be freely passed out to milling masses that will let them know what's available and how much it costs with a few lines of text about the game and a cover shot.  Short simple small enough to be dropped in a bag and flashy enough to get people to thumb through it at least once.

[Matt Gwinn]

I don't know how the new GenCon management will handle things, but last year the convention threw away a vast majority of the fliers that I brought to promote Kayfabe.  It wasn't a big deal considering I got all the copies for fre, but I'd be pretty upset if I paid $100 only to find out that the convention staff tossed most of the catalogs in the trash.

I understand why they did it, after all, they were making quite a bit of money charging to put your flyer in the swag bag they give out every year.  however, I didn't say anything about that in this year's Exhibitor's packet, so maybe leaving out flyers/catalogs won't be a big deal this year.

Of course the easy solution to this is personally handing the catalogs to people, which personally bothers me.  I hate it when people shove flyers in my face when I'm trying to browse.

,Matt G.

[philreed]

You certainly don't want to pile stacks of them around. That way lies the trash.

And don't just shove them in faces.

Instead, have a small stack at each table in the booth. There are also other booths I'm certain I could convince to have these catalogs in their booth for people to pick up.

When someone expresses an interest in a specific game, or even the entire booth, ask if they would like a demo. If they don't have time, ask if they would like a catalog. If you're selective in who you hand these out to you can get a lot more milage out of them.

[Matt Snyder]

I expected this. If I'm not wanted here just say so. Or, at least, post this in the catalog thread.

I do have a little experience in this sort of thing and was trying to use that to benifit my own personal projects (and since there is strength in numbers, the projects of others). The only way to expand is to market. And, these days, B&W sheets of paper don't work.

Phil, I don't think it's an issue of personal antagonism, nor avoiding the issue. Jared's crazy wild about posting in funky places.

But, he does have a valid concern, and I share it. I think the proposals are on two wholly different realms. Jared and I had in mind, I think, simply a small-scale flyer that would give something for  people to chew on as they wander past the booth.

I think you're talking more about a larger scale project that extends beyond GenCon itself. That's a fine idea, but I think throwing around numbers like $100 just to get in the thing (actually, Michael S. Miller deduced this figure) is scaring the bejeezus out of a bunch of us small potatoes fellows. For some of us, $100 is the amount we spent on putting the game together, and our total revenue MIGHT get into the $500 range over the long haul.

Now, does that mean investing in the thing will increase one's revenue by expanding the market awareness? Probably, yes. But it's a big step. A big reason folks are here doing what they're doing is because they don't have the money to plunck down for fantastic art or a "real" print run.

Think of it this way -- my own game Dust Devils is pretty successful by our small-scale standards. I've probably made over $500 in revenue (and probably much less in profit, alas). But, I'm very leery of investing even $25 in, say, an Internet banner ad on a popular RPG site. I'm not certain it'll actually get me sales, and it's $25 I can spend on art or materials, or even just to buy someone else's cool game.


All in all, what's going on here, I think, is a total miscommunication of purpose. Jared's proposal was for supplementing the effectiveness of the GenCon Forge booth. That's it. Pretty small stuff, really, but helpful.

Your proposal approaches the level of marketing co-op for any and all Indie press.

The reason people are jumping all over it is that the money and scale involved has the really small indie guys worried they'll be excluded because of money. This isn't really in the tradition of the Forge. Rather, this community is all about spit and bailing wire and getting anyone and everyone on board however we can.

[philreed]

First off, sorry if I over-reacted. In the back of my mind I've been worried that I am not at all wanted here because I do not do anything related to "indie RPGs" and I'm feeling a bit like an outsider. I spend my day working on much larger projects with a lot more money involved than anything I do in the evening.

What I'm trying to do is build my own PDF projects. I honestly feel that there is great potential in PDF publishing and, as I gather data and experiment, I believe it's possible to run a successful PDF operation that pays one or two full-time employees.

Part of building at my day job is marketing. I've spearheaded many marketing projects and revamped and expanded some existing ones. What I'm doing now is trying to take that experience and use it to build something for myself and, as I've mentioned before, the best way to do that is with others.

I think it all comes down to a matter of goals and intentions. I may not fit anywhere into any of the groups I've tried to discuss a catalog project with.

[quozl]

Phil, I really like your idea.  I think a nicely printed catalog of "indie games" would be awesome thing to have and I think it should be done at least yearly.  Now, for marketing purposes, I also think it would be ideal to have for GenCon but it seems people aren't sure whether the investment is worth it.

So, in order to allay some people's fears, could you you tell us what a publisher could expect to see if they invested $25 in this thing (assuming a reasonable number of people got on board)?

[Ron Edwards]

H'm,

Let's see if I can get some creative leadership going.

First of all, the good things to remember. I very much appreciate Matt's post regarding goals and scale of the project(s) under discussion. I also appreciate Phil's point of view - and I never, never want to see anyone who wants to participate in the Forge agenda get shut out.

So let's see - I'm thinking that two separate flyer/catalogue things could get going, with very different purposes.

1) The basic Kinko's flyer with a neat picture on it (probably something that one of us already owns), lots of logos for game companies, and a short paragraph for each game. I'm thinking of something very much like two sheets folded in half and stapled along the spine, in pastel colors or maybe white with a solid black border/frame. Cheap, easy, and fun. The first page has a tight and spunky paragraph that makes us all sound tres cool in the most repulsively self-indulgent sense of the word "indie." These would be all over the place in and around the booth, stuffed into sales bags, etc (Did I mention that bags for sales are a must for this year?).

2) A good-looking spiff catalogue like Phil describes. My own innate risk-aversiveness (yes, I do have a little, a very little) suggests that a few hundred is probably the best bet, but it depends on print-cost breakpoint. The purpose here is solid impressive promotion, and I think these would probably do best to be awarded to people who participate in demos.

The real issue for the later is cost-effectiveness. They can't just be promotion-outlay, something has to come of it. Any more ideas about that?

Or any ideas about the specific mission of each of these projects that can help shape their content?

Best,
Ron

[xiombarg]

In the back of my mind I've been worried that I am not at all wanted here because I do not do anything related to "indie RPGs" and I'm feeling a bit like an outsider. I spend my day working on much larger projects with a lot more money involved than anything I do in the evening.

As a quick aside, Phil, isn't Construct Mechanus and your various PDF products owned and written by you? Do you have creator control? Then by the standard Forge definition, you're Indie, and you shouldn't feel any other way. And you have some valuable industry experience that we can draw on, here. But your "evening projects" make you Indie, baby. ;-D

[Valamir]

Hey Ron, yeah, I think we're thinking along the same lines.  I had a similiar thought a few msgs up about splitting the two ideas.  I think the GenCon booth promo stuff needs to be cheap and disposable and just flashy enough to draw interest.  But I think Phil's big ass catalog idea is definitely worthy of further investigation.  I'm not completely sold on the cost to benefit of it but I'm definitely intrigued.

Perhaps a division of labor?

Phil, would you be willing to work up the catalog idea in a little more detail and present here the costs requirements time involved and how you envision it working?

Maybe Matt S. wants to coordinate putting together brochure flyer pages for the games that will actually be at the booth?

As an idea.

[Matt Snyder]

Sounds good to me, V-man. I was going to suggest the very same notion.

Phil, whaddya think? We can certainly help each other with the two products -- Fat Man and Little Boy, if you will.

I'll actually plan on doing just that -- I think it's a fine way to proceed. So, folks, count me as the guy to create the GenCon flyer, barring any real objections. I'll present some ideas, and naturally take some ideas from everyone.

For now, let's assume that this flyer for the booth will include anyone who's paid the $100 to sell at the con, as well as some space devoted to freebies. In other words, if you've got a game in ANY form coming out of the booth at the con, you'll be in the flyer.

The issue will be costs, which I'll make every effort to keep very low. However, I will gladly accept any donations for printing costs, anyone's outstanding art that can compliment the thing, and I may in the end seek a small fee ($5 or something) from everyone to help pay for the printing.

More later ...

[philreed]

I'll try and have a proposal tomorrow. Today's just too swamped with an office crisis (or 12).