Questions...Go figure!

[Aaron]

You're wrong. Go back and read that section again. The proficiencies as listed are FROM, not TO.

Brian.

Is that right? (sly grin)..

Oh well, not the first time I've looked stupid and it wont be the last. I still stand by my lance/horseback comments though :-)

And fair enough too.  But let us agree to disagree on this as I believe timing, footwork and distance would all be way different on horseback than of foot.

That's cool, been looking forward to the revised book anyway, now I just have another change to check out :-) Brian.

Get that new book already Brian!! lol...


Aaron..

[Brian Leybourne]

And fair enough too.  But let us agree to disagree on this as I believe timing, footwork and distance would all be way different on horseback than of foot.

Yes, but you're missing my point. Even if I accept that swinging a sword from horseback is entirely different from doing it on the ground (it's not so different IMO, but I'll accept your statement to make my point), both are still a world away from jousting/lancework.

The reason Mr. Swordsman is capable of using his sword skill on horseback is because he's a good rider (one hopes) and he's praticed controlling the horse with his knees or one hand, moving about, dancing forward for the strike and dancing back for evasions, etc. That doesn't mean he knows anything about keeping the horse moving at top speed and on target while maneuvering a heavy 15' long pole so that its point is going in the right direction. The cross-over in skills between the two is his horsemanship, not his swordsmanship.

Trust me, I don't ride anymore (been living in the city for many years now) but used to be a pretty good rider, and being the medieval geek I am you can believe I have tried a bit of jousting. It's not anything like swordfighting (which I have also done). No, it's not even like spear/pike work, either.

But to each their own.

Brian.

[Ryuuko]

I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

[Jake Norwood]

I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

I wish Rick were around to answer this.

1-Sure.
2-Got me.
3-I would say no.

Jake

[Sneaky Git]

I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

1. Jake's the man.

2. I'm not certain about this... What I can do, however, is give you the cost to equip a Carolingian Knight in the 9th century.

Cost of Equipping a Carolingian Knight:
Helmet = 6 Cows
Coat of Mail = 12 Cows
Sword with Scabbard = 7 Cows
Leg Armor = 6 Cows
Lance and Shield = 2 Cows
Horse = 12 Cows
Total = 45 Cows

You will notice, I am sure, that I did not provide a cost for barding... Hopefully you can extrapolate a reasonable cost despite this.

3.  See #1 above.

Chris

[arxhon]

That's a lot of cows.

Personally, i would add another 45 cows to that total for the cost of barding.

IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

[toli]

IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

I think you are right.  Barding had been invented much earlier in the east (Scythians, Alans etc)  but was not in western europe until the late middle ages (1400's).

[Sneaky Git]

IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

I think you are right.  Barding had been invented much earlier in the east (Scythians, Alans etc)  but was not in western europe until the late middle ages (1400's).

True.  Persian heavy cavalry carried armor as early as their wars against the Greeks (6th century BCE).  Parthian cataphractoi equipped horse and rider (nobles only) with armor of bronze or iron scales.  That was pre-1st century BCE.  The Sarmatians (1st and 2nd century CE/Black Sea region), known for being the culture to develop the first western-style saddle, protected their mounts with scales of iron, bronze, horn, or hardened leather.  The Romans copied this, fielding heavy cavalry (cataphracts) in the Sarmatian style as early as the 2nd or 3rd century CE.  These troops were the progenitors of the Byzantine cataphractoi that European knights would have run across during the Crusades (11th century CE and later...the first was called by Pope Urban II in 1095 at Clermont Cathedral).

Western Europeans fell behind the times after the "Fall" of the Roman Empire.  It's successors, the Germanic tribes of Northern and Eastern Europe were, for the large part, unarmored save for chieftains.  This continued until the 8th century CE with the unification of the Franks under Charles the Great (Charlemagne).  Knights became armored, but horses remained largely unarmored until the 12th century when early types began to see limited use.  Cloth first, and then leather, to protect the horses flanks and withers were eventually replaced by the mail and plate barding you begin to see in the 14th century.

Sorry for the ramble. *grin*  Kinda got carried away.  Not really sure what my point was.. other than it was possible that mounted warriors as early as the 9th century could have protected their horses with armor...but that it was unlikely.  And that I still don't know how much it would cost.  Other than it would probably not cost the same as a trained warhorse...until you get to later periods.  But that's just a guess.

Chris

[arxhon]

That was a very good historical analysis, Sneaky Git. I learned stuff. :-)

Just examining costs here...a full suit of plate, including the helm is about 16g, and a destrier is 40g (imperial standard). Considering that there are evidently several types of barding (cloth, leather, chain, and scales) it's tough to come up with a set price right away.

This falls under the category of Seneschal fiat for now, i guess.

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

[Sneaky Git]

That was a very good historical analysis, Sneaky Git. I learned stuff. :-)

Just examining costs here...a full suit of plate, including the helm is about 16g, and a destrier is 40g (imperial standard). Considering that there are evidently several types of barding (cloth, leather, chain, and scales) it's tough to come up with a set price right away.

This falls under the category of Seneschal fiat for now, i guess.

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

I know, with quite a bit of certainty, that the Persians made use of such armor... hmm... I think around the time of Darius II (4th-5th century BCE).  As for later, I have seen paintings that depicted "half-barding," but am uncertain as to its prevalence.

Chris

[Salamander]

Which brings me to my question / request.  If anyone out there can provide me with a rough idea of what a medieval Knight's properties would be composed of it would be a great help.  One influencing factor might be that the land has been entrusted to his family for at least two generations (I believe that was done, or am I wrong?).

Wow.. umm a knights holdings and properties depended a lot on the situation he and his holdings were in. There was a huge amount of variety between even two neighboring holds. I think that every decent land holding would (should) have a mill(water, wind or "tidal"), a certain amount of arable land an amount of forest, pastureland and a few roads (oh boy! more exepenses!) as well as access to a waterway of some sort... but you would be amazed at how many battles were fought over the rights of access to something as mundane as a stream. If you want to get more in depth, just let me know.

I'm also thinking of establishing some things that the land and people may be well supplied with (arable lands, ores, naturally defensible terrain{one or two things, not all...resist munchkinism}) / talented in (agriculture, mining, metalsmithing, stone masonry, etc) and areas in which there may be deficiencies, possibly severe.  And yes, I realize that the particular country which the character lives in will determine some of the above, but I'd like to make it a truly unque holding instead of a microcosm of the home country.  

Don't forget the problems inherent to owning rich lands... many raiders/robbers/bandits which leads to using up some of your manpower in keeping the trouble-makers in check as well as having to contend with guilds and those troublesome townsfolk and the underside of a wealthy feof as well... corruption! Just imagine the fun of having to effectively deal with a local gang of thieves in your village stealing all the chickens... you want them held in check, but you want them around as a way of finding out about spies and saboteurs. Gets complicated fast, donnit?

OK, I think that's just about enough of that, except to say that it's been a while since I've been psyched up about a character like I am now.  ROS has an excellent character creation system and world setting... I'm looking forward to claiming my half of the Xanarian Empire by whatever means neccessary.  Thanks guys.

I haven't even played it beyond simulations but already the blood flows.... err... heh...

[Salamander]

This may be oversimplifying it, but I would just look up the pertinent costs of the type of armour you want for the barding and then multiply the base price of a human set by ten. So a suit of Chain Barding (fully covered flanks, whithers & neck) would be 5gp for the human set * 10 for a total of 50gp. Want a chanfron? An enclosed chanfron would set you back the price of a human great helm times ten or 15sp*10 = 150sp (about 7gp, 10 sp) So to armour your ride will cost 57gp, 10sp. No wonder this stuff got ransomed back!

As a side note, I think that there should also be a limit on which kind of beast can wear the heavier barding. So a plain ole' horse would be limited to rider. A Courser could wear chain (maille) proofness, a Charger would be able to sport leather barding and only a Destrier could handle the bulk and weight of a suit of full harness. Also the animal would suffer the same penalties from barding as the human wearing similar type of human armour would.

[arxhon]

That actually sounds like a great way to handle it, Salamander. Good job!

It doesn't need to be complicated.

As you pointed out, the stuff is expensive which would make for a good adventure of two (the Duke's barding got stolen, and you have to recover it).

[Salamander]

Thank you, I am glad to have made a contribution!
=)

[Sneaky Git]

This may be oversimplifying it, but I would just look up the pertinent costs of the type of armour you want for the barding and then multiply the base price of a human set by ten. So a suit of Chain Barding (fully covered flanks, whithers & neck) would be 5gp for the human set * 10 for a total of 50gp. Want a chanfron? An enclosed chanfron would set you back the price of a human great helm times ten or 15sp*10 = 150sp (about 7gp, 10 sp) So to armour your ride will cost 57gp, 10sp. No wonder this stuff got ransomed back!

As a side note, I think that there should also be a limit on which kind of beast can wear the heavier barding. So a plain ole' horse would be limited to rider. A Courser could wear chain (maille) proofness, a Charger would be able to sport leather barding and only a Destrier could handle the bulk and weight of a suit of full harness. Also the animal would suffer the same penalties from barding as the human wearing similar type of human armour would.

I don't know.. Seems a bit on the expensive side, doesn't it?  Salamander, how did you come up with the x10 multiplier?  I feel that it generates costs that are prohibitively expensive.  Especially considering that the average yearly income for a landed noble is 50 gold (10 of which goes to a Steward...a good investment), and you still haven't taken into account expenses (manorial upkeep, armsmen, livestock, household, etc.).

Now, I certainly agree that horse armor should be expensive...and that calculating costs should not require a degree in higher math.  However, I can't help but feel that a bigger area does not necessarily equate to more expensive.. know what I mean?

What do you think?

Chris