Questions...Go figure!

[Brian Leybourne]

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

Kind of.. it depends on the kind of barding you're using.

This is all covered really well in Of Beasts and Men, but in a nutshell, you have the following:

Crinet: Chain or lobstered plate covering for the neck of the horse.

Chanfron: plate "face mask" with eye holes.

Peytral: hangs down from the Chanfron and/or Crinet and provides protection to the breast of the horse

Crupper: leather or chain covering for the rear of the horse, attached to the saddle and hanging down the flanks.

Flanchard: protective coverings hanging down the sides of the horse, and protecting the sides and back. They require that a Saddle, Crupper and Peytral be present for them to be attached to.

Saddle: Duh

Caprisons: blanket-like covering for the horse. Usually made of heavy cloth, but possibly also in tough leather or chain, hanging down as low as the knees

Cuissart/Grevíere: A Cuissart is a metallic plate that covers the upper legs of a horse (the "thighs"), while a Grevíere covers the lower leg (the "shin").

That's a brief look at barding, there's heaps more in OBAM.

Brian.

[Sneaky Git]

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

Kind of.. it depends on the kind of barding you're using.

This is all covered really well in Of Beasts and Men,

Brian.

Oh yessss.. my precioussss.  When are we seeing you... Soooon we hopessss, my precioussss.  Yesss...

...er, right.

Of Beasts and Men, can't get it soon enough... and yet you taunt us with it.

Fiend.



Chris

[arxhon]

Of Beasts and Men, can't get it soon enough... and yet you taunt us with it.

I think it's part of the marketing strategy. :-)

Thanks for covering that bit about half-barding, Brian. Looks like you're sinking a helluva lot of work into OBAM, Brian and Jake. Keep it up!

[Brian Leybourne]

Of Beasts and Men, can't get it soon enough... and yet you taunt us with it.

But of course, why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

Sorry... just seemed the appropriate time for a Monty Python moment. :-)

Brian.

[Salamander]

I don't know.. Seems a bit on the expensive side, doesn't it?  Salamander, how did you come up with the x10 multiplier?  I feel that it generates costs that are prohibitively expensive.  Especially considering that the average yearly income for a landed noble is 50 gold (10 of which goes to a Steward...a good investment), and you still haven't taken into account expenses (manorial upkeep, armsmen, livestock, household, etc.).

Well, for starters the armour question is best responded to with; if you feel its too pricey, by all means select a lower multiplier.

That out of the way, the reason I selected that number had to do with a few factors, in a few books I have read about things being ransomed back. For example in the quick bio of Chaucer's life, they mentioned he was ransomed back for just a little less than somebody's war horse, 40 pounds sterling I believe. And somewhere else I read that the armour was most likely ransomed back for a like price (I don't remember where I read this).  It mentioned that 40 pounds then would buy what 5000 pounds would in 1984 (Date of the edition's translation) so about 9000 USD around that time, if I recall. So the ransom in 1984 dollars was 9 grand... fast forward to today that's about 16-18G, or a ransom for barding of about 17,000 dollars. Most ransoms ran between one half to one third of the going price if I am not mistaken.... so that barding would be worth between 34,000 and 51,000 dollars. I just extrapolated and figured the stuff new might cost a hint more, so I guestimated a factor of ten.

Also, when I interpreted the holdings idea, I figured that the Landed Noble would have the animals and wages figured into his total cost-benefit ratio. So he is actually getting 50gp a year free and clear. As for the barding, well, he can buy it with the 250gp he has in pocket to start. My rationale behind this is that the armour and such were already in his possession, the 250 gold is a mixture of material possessions and coin in the coffers. Besides a knight could wait months for a set of barding to be finished.

Now, I certainly agree that horse armor should be expensive...and that calculating costs should not require a degree in higher math.  However, I can't help but feel that a bigger area does not necessarily equate to more expensive.. know what I mean?

What do you think?

Chris

In the days of yore, a knight had two maybe three types of horse at his disposal, a Palfrey, a hunting horse and a war horse. To train a good riding horse was not too much trouble, you could have them ready two to three years after foal. The hunters were a bit trickier, learning to obey some simple directions and some interesting maneuvers as well as being used to the din of the hounds and the cries of the prey. A warhorse is an entirely different matter. One has to find the brightest and biggest animals with a steadfastness that brooched on the eerie, teach it to obey verbal and non-reign commands as well as how to lash out at the right people in the midst of a pitched battle. As you can guess that was a huge investment, not only of money but of time. Time was the knight's concern. If he had a run on his warhorses and ended up loosing them all in a season or two, what has he got left? A few palfreys and a couple of hunters, not going to fight with them, no sir! So he has to wait until he has more warhorses foaled and up to speed, if he had one who foaled the very same year he lost the other warhorses he would not have a decent mount until four to five years later. So if I were in his shoes, I would throw down the coin to ensure that my rides were as well protected as possible. So you go to an armourer who has the skill to make your barding, it will have about five times the dimensions as that as human armour. That turns into 25 times the surface area. I think that alone covers the multiplier of ten, of course this larger piece is going to be more challenging and is going to take much more time to make than a suit of harness for a man.

So there you have it. I hope I have explained it to your satisfaction.

=)

[Valamir]

Hey Dam.  Go out and pick up a copy of Lordly Domains for Pendragon.  It'll have pretty much everything you want to know about running land from a single manor up to a kingdom including the duties owned to ones lord and the various privileges and special taxes a land owner can assess.

[Damascus]

Thanks, Salamander.  That was good info.  I'd ask more, but I fear my seneschal may already be plotting against me... if chickens suddenly show up missing I'm gonna break out in a cold sweat.  Actually, with what he's already thrown at me in our first session missing chickens might be a blessing.

And to everyone responsible for TROS, a big thank you!  I had a ball with the game this weekend and I'm looking forward to picking up my own copy and passing on the good word.  OK, I'm actually looking forward to seeing the reaction on the face of players when they hear what kind of damage they're doing / is being done to them.  Beats the crap out of "take 10 hp damage" or "mark off 6 boxes for a serious wound".

[Damascus]

Will do.  Thanks, Valamir.

[toli]

If he had a run on his warhorses and ended up loosing them all in a season or two, what has he got left?

Warhorses were certainly expensive and often hard to come by.  Historically kings or states (cities what have you, leaders in general) had to start paying back knights and men-at-arms for lost horses.  They (leaders) also required steeds of a minumum value when hiring mercenaries.  As such, at the beginning of campaings or seasons, cavalry and mounted bowmen would have their mounts assessed and the value recorded.  If the horse was lost in a battle, the state would (was supposed) pay the knight the value of the horse minus the value of the skin etc.

I would throw down the coin to ensure that my rides were as well protected as possible. So you go to an armourer who has the skill to make your barding, it will have about five times the dimensions as that as human armour. That turns into 25 times the surface area. I think that alone covers the multiplier of ten, of course this larger piece is going to be more challenging and is going to take much more time to make than a suit of harness for a man.

=)

I had some lists of armor weights some where.  Gothic (~1475) plate armor for a man weighed around 57-60 lbs.  If I remember, that for a horse was ~75-80 lbs.  Thus the overall, metal content was similar.  I don't know whether making larger pieces would be more challenging or not.  It might be lest time consuming than fashing lots of smaller pieces.

NT

[Salamander]

I did not know that a set of barding weighed 75 or so pounds. Cool. Thanks toli. One more thing to add to my puddle of knowledge.

As for the craftsmanship involved, yeah I think there is a heck of a lot of work and skill required to make something that big and not pound it out to the toughness of foil with that amount of metal.

The leaders setting up to reimburse the combatants was something I had heard a little about, and I think that statement complements what I said previously.

[toli]

I did not know that a set of barding weighed 75 or so pounds. Cool. Thanks toli. One more thing to add to my puddle of knowledge.

No problem.  I've got a bunch of information at home on amor weights.  I'll see if I can find it.   I have some costs as well.  I don't think I ever found an actual value for the cost of barding.  It might not be that expensive, however.  If I remember around the 1470s or so, men-at-arms were required to have full plate, sallet, bervor, lance, mace, longsword, and dagger, and....barding (by Charles the Bold at least).  It is also a period of time when heavy cavalry regained some importance for a while because of excellent armor and barding.

Obviously the cost of armor and barding would vary.  In Stahl where there are good armorers and big horses, barding would be more common and cheaper...than other places...

NT

[toli]

RE Barding

Here is some info I dug up at home:

Year ~ 1450

weight of man 140 lbs
weigh of armor for man AND horse 163 lbs
arms, clothing, saddle 30 lbs

Total carried by horse 333 lbs (1)

Armor for man alone 57 lbs (3)

Leaving 106 lbs for the barding

Year ~ 1480

weigh of man 140 lbs
weigh of armor for man and horse 126 lbs
arms, clothing saddle 30lbs

Total 296 lbs (2)

Armor for man alone ~47 lbs (4)

Leaving 79 lbs for the barding


(1) Paris, Musee de L'Armee
(2) London, Wallace Collection
(3) Glasgow, City Museum
(4) London, Wallace Collection


I also looked in some other games that I have.  They list the price of barding at 1.5 - 2.5 x the price of a similar suit of armor for a man.  Obviously this has little to no real historical value, but might be useful in a game sense for reference.


NT