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[Valamir]

Mist, might I suggest that you return to this thread when you actually have something concrete enough to be read and commented on.  I'm not sure sporadic idea dumps on a forum board is the best way for you to tackle the design of your game.

[M. J. Young]

I'm having trouble reconciling

The ones with supernormal powers are like...they've always excisted. People don't really care about them, they know they posses these abilities, and point it out most of the times; but it's not like the superpowered ones are feared by all others...more like amazing people.

with

In fact, the characters are probably not 'heroes' at all, most of them will probably be thieves or hired assassins, as this makes more money. And I'm thinking of an experience system that awards players on how many people they've killed.

This aspect of the background has already "snapped my disbelief suspenders". You're suggesting that there are these people, between 0.1% and 0.13% of the population, who

[*]have powers beyond those of normal people, and [*]use these powers to steal and kill and otherwise take advantage of the weak,[/list:u] and that the rest of the people in the world just think this is all right?

The background you're suggesting starts to sound like the series Prey, in which the "new species" is hiding among us and using its superior abilities to try to replace us. I think that if ordinary humans were aware that there were these extraordinary individuals out there who generally used their abilities for nefarious and often murderous purposes, we would put a stop to them.

In fact, if even only one in ten of your hypothetical superhumans took this attitude, and the other nine in ten did not both

[*]actively work to stop these villains AND [*]maintain a strongly positive public relations campaign,[/list:u] the vast majority of us would want to get control over ALL of these people, because they are dangerous and need to be contained.

O.K., maybe that's the idea behind the mutant stuff in Marvel; but you've got to admit, it's not terribly credible to suggest that there are supervillains out there and nobody cares. If we didn't know, that would be different. Or maybe if it was obvious that these supervillains were always so selfish and egotistical that they were always quite intentionally working at cross purposes (such that every scheme to take over the world would be countered by another villain who can't abide to allow the first villain to beat him to it), we might tolerate it. But the suggestion has been made that these superior people survive by robbing and killing the inferior ones, and the inferior ones outnumber them at least 749 to 1, so we are going to bring them down.

I guess I'm just not interested in a game in which the players play the bad guys. Maybe if they play bad guys trying to find redemption (Forever Knight?), or bad guys who are really good guys fighting a bad system (Star Wars rebels? Robin Hood?), or good guys no one trusts (Spiderman?), but just to play villains for the gratuity of killing and stealing when no one is strong enough to stop you seems like a waste of good game time.

--M. J. Young

[Balbinus]

MJ Young makes some excellent points.

The background doesn't make much sense.  A huge number of people have powers, in my home city of London we have roughly 7 million people (not counting suburbs).  That makes for around 9,333 powered individuals.  Except, London being the Capital and all, it would be more than that as powered individuals would likely move here from other parts of the country.

These people prey on others using their special abilities.  

Why do we let them?  Why don't we get the army to shoot them or the police to take them down one by one?  Probably in part because only 1 person in 500 is in the police so there are nearly as many of these powered individuals as we have police.

So why don't they take over?

Essentially, this sounds nothing like the modern world.  I can't see how a culture and civilisation like ours could co-exist with the numbers of powered individuals you posit.  I also can't see why the normals ignore these people.  It makes no sense.  I would not live in London if I had to share it with over 9,000 hostile superpowered people many of whom were inclined to rob and kill and who could not be stopped.  Nobody would.  

Also, if the supers always existed I seriously doubt our civilisation would ever have developed.  Basic democratic concepts such as "All men are created equal" would be manifestly untrue.  Christianity would never develop as it has, apart from anything else nobody would believe that Christ was the son of god, they'd just figure he was another super.  What value miracles in a world where 1 person in 750 can perform them anyway?

Sorry to sound so harsh.  But this really needs a lot of further thought.  

Also, why is Godlike not close precisely?  Godlike is about what would happen in the real world if certain people possessed superpowers (and while you may dislike the word supers that's still your concept in a nutshell).  What is it about the Godlike approach you disagree with?  It sounds to me like Godlike is already what you are looking to design, save that Godlike has given thought to the relationships between normals and talents and the effects of superpowers on society.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Mist', without getting too hung up on "what would happen" and the "setting making sense," I think that you might enjoy checking out these two games:

Godlike - all you'd have to do is remove the World War Two context and simply play as you see fit, using the powers-rules in the game.

Heroic Do-Gooders and Dastardly Deed-Doers - this game permits playing the Dastardly characters as player-characters, and if everyone does that, you'd have a game such as you describe. I also think that its emphasis on Today as the setting (not a made-up world) is just what you're after.

These are very different games in terms of points, powers, resolution, and many other things, so it'd be interesting to know which one of them is more suited to your goals of play. If neither of them is suited to those goals, mechanically speaking, then it's time to consider writing your own game.

Best,
Ron

[Balbinus]

Ron,

Mist already ruled out Godlike above, saying it was not even close.  This is why I ask the question I do in the latter part of my post.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Max,

I realize this. Since Mist's objections seem to rely on setting-issues, I'm attempting to focus his or her attention on the mechanics and power-construction rules.

I also suggest that we all stop playing Twenty Questions or Hot-Cold. Mist, we can't keep providing suggestions and have you bat them away with "Nope, that's not it." That will lead to an eight-page thread with nothing on it.

To help you get started, please provide us with some better perspective on what, in your view, will be the single most fun moment of play.

Best,
Ron

[MistHunter]

When I saw your examples of how many 'supers' that would be, it shocked me, how could I be so bad with numbers!!!!!! Seriously, now I think that it's more 1 in 3000. Let's see....times thousand....times 3.....3000 supers in London.....still too much..... *keeps on doing this*
AHA! 1 in 18.000!

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Off by 17.250 people! AM I THAT BAD WITH NUMBERS?!

and also, they prey more on themselves and the rich people than the normal people. Geez, this setting is hard to explain.......
Most of these 'supers' are very bad at the skil; only 1 in a 50 supers is actually strong enough to be called inhuman, and only 1 in 150 supers can be called a threat to society.
Anyways, I'll come back with the setting issue soon; it's Ron's turn now...

that'll probably be when the PCs come face to face with 'that' gang of supers with a fearful reputation all over the world. Will they kill the PCs, ot ask them to join them? Or just let the PCs go? It depends on your image; you look like you can get in their way, you'll get the first option. Look strong enough and suitable for the team, you get the second option, deny it or accept it, that's you choice, but denying could be the worst decision...  Look like no threat and weak opponent, the third option is yours.
In a situation like this, the PCs will have infinite choices, tho if they get the first option, the best choice would probably be running... But just simple running would probably not be good enough; you better outsmart them....

I'll post tomorow some more about the setting problems.

And on a last note... I'm gonna scrape the kill reward system; if I was to play this RPG, it would probably not apeal to me...

And on a very last note...! As this might seem like 20 questions to most of you, you're really helping me materialize my RPG. I could say I'm almost done with the setting. (Tho I bet you guys will find another flaw, which just helps me get closer to a great RPG! ^_^ )

[Mike Holmes]

Here's some fun figures. I've run it for three orders of magnitude. I figure you're going to want something between 1 in 10,000, and 1  in 1,000,000. So, for each I've listed the total people with powers(pow), the total who are skilled in thier power (ski:a subset of the total powereds), and the threatening level (thr: a subset of skilleds).

Code Select Expand


                              1 in 10,000      1 in 100,000  1 in 1,000,000  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Country               Pop  |   Pow   Ski  Thr | Pow  Ski Thr |Pow Ski Thr
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afghanistan    28,717,213     2872    57   19   287    6   2   29   1   0
Algeria        32,818,500     3282    66   22   328    7   2   33   1   0
Angola         10,766,471     1077    22    7   108    2   1   11   0   0
Argentina      38,740,807     3874    77   26   387    8   3   39   1   0
Australia      19,731,984     1973    39   13   197    4   1   20   0   0
Bangladesh    138,448,210    13845   277   92  1384   28   9  138   3   1
Belarus        10,322,151     1032    21    7   103    2   1   10   0   0
Belgium        10,289,088     1029    21    7   103    2   1   10   0   0
Brazil        182,032,604    18203   364  121  1820   36  12  182   4   1
Burkina Faso   13,228,460     1323    26    9   132    3   1   13   0   0
Burma          42,510,537     4251    85   28   425    9   3   43   1   0
Cambodia       13,124,764     1312    26    9   131    3   1   13   0   0
Cameroon       15,746,179     1575    32   11   157    3   1   16   0   0
Canada         32,207,113     3221    64   21   322    6   2   32   1   0
Chile          15,665,216     1567    31   10   157    3   1   16   0   0
China       1,286,975,468   128698  2574  858 12870  257  86 1287  26   9
Colombia       41,662,073     4166    83   28   417    8   3   42   1   0
Congo          56,625,039     5663   113   38   566   11   4   57   1   0
Cote d'Ivoire  16,962,491     1696    34   11   170    3   1   17   0   0
Cuba           11,263,429     1126    23    8   113    2   1   11   0   0
Czech Republic 10,249,216     1025    21    7   102    2   1   10   0   0
Ecuador        13,710,234     1371    27    9   137    3   1   14   0   0
Egypt          74,718,797     7472   149   50   747   15   5   75   2   1
Ethiopia       66,557,553     6656   133   44   666   13   4   67   1   0
France         60,180,529     6018   120   40   602   12   4   60   1   0
Germany        82,398,326     8240   165   55   824   16   5   82   2   1
Ghana          20,467,747     2047    41   14   205    4   1   20   0   0
Greece         10,665,989     1067    21    7   107    2   1   11   0   0
Guatemala      13,909,384     1391    28    9   139    3   1   14   0   0
Hungary        10,045,407     1005    20    7   100    2   1   10   0   0
India       1,049,700,118   104970  2099  700 10497  210  70 1050  21   7
Indonesia     234,893,453    23489   470  157  2349   47  16  235   5   2
Iran           68,278,826     6828   137   46   683   14   5   68   1   0
Iraq           24,683,313     2468    49   16   247    5   2   25   1   0
Italy          57,998,353     5800   116   39   580   12   4   58   1   0
Japan         127,214,499    12721   254   85  1272   25   8  127   3   1
Kazakhstan     16,763,795     1676    34   11   168    3   1   17   0   0
Kenya          31,639,091     3164    63   21   316    6   2   32   1   0
Madagascar     16,979,744     1698    34   11   170    3   1   17   0   0
Malawi         11,651,239     1165    23    8   117    2   1   12   0   0
Malaysia       23,092,940     2309    46   15   231    5   2   23   0   0
Mali           11,626,219     1163    23    8   116    2   1   12   0   0
Mexico        104,907,991    10491   210   70  1049   21   7  105   2   1
Morocco        31,689,265     3169    63   21   317    6   2   32   1   0
Mozambique     17,479,266     1748    35   12   175    4   1   17   0   0
Nepal          26,469,569     2647    53   18   265    5   2   26   1   0
Netherlands    16,150,511     1615    32   11   162    3   1   16   0   0
Niger          11,058,590     1106    22    7   111    2   1   11   0   0
Nigeria       133,881,703    13388   268   89  1339   27   9  134   3   1
Korea, North   22,466,481     2247    45   15   225    5   2   22   0   0
Pakistan      150,694,740    15069   301  100  1507   30  10  151   3   1
Peru           28,409,897     2841    57   19   284    6   2   28   1   0
Philippines    84,619,974     8462   169   56   846   17   6   85   2   1
Poland         38,622,660     3862    77   26   386    8   3   39   1   0
Portugal       10,102,022     1010    20    7   101    2   1   10   0   0
Romania        22,271,839     2227    45   15   223    4   1   22   0   0
Russia        144,526,278    14453   289   96  1445   29  10  145   3   1
Saudi Arabia   24,293,844     2429    49   16   243    5   2   24   0   0
Senegal        10,580,307     1058    21    7   106    2   1   11   0   0
South Africa   42,768,678     4277    86   29   428    9   3   43   1   0
Korea, South   48,289,037     4829    97   32   483   10   3   48   1   0
Spain          40,217,413     4022    80   27   402    8   3   40   1   0
Sri Lanka      19,742,439     1974    39   13   197    4   1   20   0   0
Sudan          38,114,160     3811    76   25   381    8   3   38   1   0
Syria          17,585,540     1759    35   12   176    4   1   18   0   0
Taiwan         22,603,000     2260    45   15   226    5   2   23   0   0
Tanzania       35,922,454     3592    72   24   359    7   2   36   1   0
Thailand       64,265,276     6427   129   43   643   13   4   64   1   0
Turkey         68,109,469     6811   136   45   681   14   5   68   1   0
Uganda         25,632,794     2563    51   17   256    5   2   26   1   0
Ukraine        48,055,439     4806    96   32   481   10   3   48   1   0
United Kingdom 60,094,648     6009   120   40   601   12   4   60   1   0
United States 290,342,554    29034   581  194  2903   58  19  290   6   2
Uzbekistan     25,981,647     2598    52   17   260    5   2   26   1   0
Venezuela      24,654,694     2465    49   16   247    5   2   25   1   0
Vietnam        81,624,716     8162   163   54   816   16   5   82   2   1
Yemen          19,349,881     1935    39   13   193    4   1   19   0   0
Yugoslavia     10,655,774     1066    21    7   107    2   1   11   0   0
Zambia         10,307,333     1031    21    7   103    2   1   10   0   0
Zimbabwe       12,576,742     1258    25    8   126    3   1   13   0   0
Other         361,928,497    36193   724  241  3619   72  24  362   7   2
WORLD       6,302,309,691   630231 12605 4202 63023 1260 420 6302 126  42
Your screen may need to be set wide to view this well.

Mike

[MistHunter]

This really helps me out, and know I see that 1 in 100,000 is probably the best estimation. And to those still saying that 420 is a lot for 'powers' (which I'll probably call these characters when the RPG is done) threatening the world; most of these acquire that level by getting guidance by others. In other words, you need to be a nice guy and get people to want to help you.
I'll be busy this weekend trying to set the whole world up, and then I'll post it on indie-rpgs, but until than, I'm not gonna answer any settings questions.

[Balbinus]

Mist,

I'm still curious why you feel Godlike isn't a useful precedent.  Obviously, the desire to create your own game is a perfectly valid reason for creating your own game, but Godlike sounds very similar and if we knew what you don't like about it it might really help us with assisting you.

Also, Ron's question about the single most fun moment of play is a damn good one.  If we were playing, what would that moment be and why?

[Gold Rush Games]

First: Don't worry about popularity.
Rather than worrying about popularity, work instead on making a game you would enjoy playing, making it work, and playtesting it. Your enthusiasm for your own work will translate into sales.

 With all due respect, this is not good advice, IMHO. If the designer or publisher's passion alone were able to generate sales, then I would be a wealthy man by now.

 The reality is that in the specialty hobby market, one makes money selling things, and one cannot generally sell something that consumers don't want. Sounds ridiculously simple, yes, but it's something that a lot of passionate designers don't often take into consideration.

 If you are designing something intended to be sold in the marketplace, then I would strongly suggest keeping an eye toward creating something that will appeal to the broadest market. The reality is that "content," no matter how good, does not sell product, no matter how much we designers wish it were otherwise.

[MistHunter]

What you're saying is right, but I do not think a RPG can gain high quality without the designer being interested in it. Both of you were right, but only partially I think. Now I have a question to all of you; if you would see a summary of this setting, would it appeal to you? You can wait until I'm finished writing the whole setting idea, but I would like to know.

And balbinus, I answered that question in one of my previous posts.l

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Mist,

With respect, no, you have not answered the question about Godlike or any of the other conceptual questions we've posed. You've spent a lot of time talking about your setting and focusing on things like demographics, and in a couple of cases, you've switched the topic of a question into a setting-question.

Please review my earlier post in particular. Bear in mind that I really do not care, at all, about how plausible or detailed your setting is. Focus on the issues of four people hanging out at a role-playing table and tell me, specifically and with details, how they are having fun with your game.

Best,
Ron

[Allan]

Hey Mist, I like the setting so far, and I sympathize with the number problem.  By the way, good call on not giving XP for kills.

Seriously, listen to Ron and try to answer his question about the most enjoyable gaming moment.  Let me try to help by offering some suggestions.  Is it the fast-paced, cinematic combat?  The realistic tactics?  Finding new and subtle uses for quirky, innovative superpowers?  Exploring the reaction of modern society to superpowers (and vice versa)?  Or the personal lives and relationships of superpowered people?  

Your answer might have nothing to do with any of these things, Mist.  Just a few suggestions to get you thinking about what kind of gaming experience you're trying to create.  The mechanics and the details of the setting should flow from that.  

I really enjoy stories of super-powered people who behave in realistically low-key ways (without capes or tights).  I look forward to seeing what you come up with.