Game Writer's take heed--a bit of a rant.

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I'd rather read 6 good pages that 100 bad ones. And as Derek Guder said, "RPG writing is all about using long sentences to state the obvious."

You want length, read a book.

- J

[quozl]

Tim brought this up on the Christian Gamers Guild email group and I thought the repsponse I wrote him there might bear repeating here:

Sidhain said:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Nichol"
> To: <ChristianGamersGuild@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [CGG] Pardon me, I must rant aka "So I got Paladin RPG"
>
>> Just a quick note:
>>
>> I bought The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen by Hogshead
>> Publishing.  It's only 24 pages long and the actual rules fit on one
>> page.  Did I feel ripped off?  A little bit...until I actually played
>> the game.  The book was totally worth it in my opinion.
>>
>> I haven't bought Paladin but try the game out and then tell us if it
>> was worth it or not.
>
> One: That was already printed out right? (so your not adding toner/ink
> and paper on top of that)

True, and it did have a nice color cardstock cover.  However, 24 pages of
ink and paper doesn't cost much.
>
> Two: How much did you pay for it? When I looked at it it was going for
> 5.95 ish?

I paid $6.95 which is the MSRP.  I checked RPGNow and it looks like
Paladin is selling for $6.00 so I think the page count/price is
comparable.
>
> And three: It's really not the money I paid for it, I paid for Metalface
> becaus RPGnow had a faulty link, and come to find out you can actually
> get it for free? Am I one whit upset about paying for something I could
> have had free? No, not in this case because I /feel/ I got what I paid
> for.

This is what my point was about.  It doesn't matter how many pages you
got.  What matters is the enjoyment you got out of it for the price.  If
you never play the game, the only enjoyment you'll get out of it is
reading it and 29 pages isn't much reading enjoyment compared to 128 pages
(assuming comparably written material).

However, if you play the game, you may get a lot more enjoyment out of 29
pages than you would from 128 pages which was the case with me and the
Baron Munchausen.  Baron was an enjoyable read but there was only 24
pages.  However, the gameplay made it worth more than a 128 page book to
me.

Please, play the game and then tell us whether you feel it needed more
pages or not.  Unless you bought the game to only read, I don't feel you
have a legitimate complaint saying you got ripped off if you've never
played it.

[Paganini]

How many RPGs can I think of that are really elegant and compressed, written in a precise and compact style that immediately gets to the point and covers exactly and only what it needs to?  Er... um.... kill puppies is a pretty good example... er... are there actually a lot of others?

Well, I think so. I'm helping James edit TQB right now. At 32 pages it's one of the strongest, most focused games I've seen. There's also Universalis, which is under 100 pages, and is one of the best $16 I've spent on a gaming product. Universalis certainly has everything you need and more. Donjon is 79 pages and has, IMO, more than it needs. SOAP is 27 pages of extremely focused gaming instructions. I think the design is slightly incoherent, but adding more text is not going to fix that.

[Paganini]

How many RPGs can I think of that are really elegant and compressed, written in a precise and compact style that immediately gets to the point and covers exactly and only what it needs to? Er... um.... kill puppies is a pretty good example... er... are there actually a lot of others?

Well, I think so. I'm helping James edit TQB right now. At 32 pages it's one of the strongest, most focused games I've seen. There's also Universalis, which is under 100 pages, and is one of the best $16 I've spent on a gaming product. Universalis certainly has everything you need and more. Donjon is 79 pages and has, IMO, more than it needs. SOAP is 27 pages of extremely focused gaming instructions. I think the design is slightly incoherent, but adding more text is not going to fix that.[/quote]

A note:

I don't think anyone is claiming that short games are *inherently* better than long games. It's just as easy to write 25 pages of crap as it is to write 100 pages of crap. And there's no way of knowing the quality of the contents ahead of time. But, assuming a high level of quality for a minute, I'm more likely to go with a short game than a long one. The human brain can only absorb so much information at a time. The human brain also can only retain and recall so much information when necessary. Big games give me "overload syndrome."

To me, a big part of what "playing a game" means is abiding by the rules and staying consistent to the setting information. If I'm going to break rules and contradict the setting just because there's too much stuff to remember, then I don't want that game. I'll probably never play it, and I'll probably never even finish reading it. I'll get to the point where the brain stops assimilating, and I'll put it back on the shelf. "AAAH! To much stuff!"

Another note:

The page-count inflating components that most people are mentioning (setting, sample characters, extensive background) and so on are not very *useful* to the style of play I like. When I play, the whole point (well, one of the points) is to make stuff up. I don't like it if there's a lot of pre-made-up stuff that I have to remember and not contradict. I only need enough setting / background (I view them as one and the same) information to give me ideas about what might be cool to make up.

This is one reason I still don't buy D&D stuff, even though the new 3e is supposed to be a good game. The designers make everything up in minute detail. They publish it in expensive books. I don't care what they've made up, I want to make stuff up. This is why TQB is great. TQB is a way to make stuff up. The only pre-made-up stuff it has is the example Accord and example Romances, to explain how the system works.

A third note:

I like art and visuals. Like I said, good layout and design is a major selling point for me. Not sure where Clehric got the idea that indie gamers don't like art.

For the record, I think The Pool makes a great example: it's short, and it's free. If you want me to pay money for it, I want to know why...

Go buy The Questing Beast and find out. ;)

Jake:

I can't believe what I'm hearing. You're saying that indie-designers need to write longer games to be legitimized? Isn't one of our main goals here to change market perceptions to legitimize our games and de-legitimize corporate monoliths?

Tim:

You missed it. GNS *is* the point. GNS says that gamers are different. I think the reason that you're getting such a strong response here is that your argument boils down to:

"Paladin should be longer" rather than "I prefer longer games."

This is direct antitheses to a lot of people who post here. That disagreement is, I think, in a lot of cases the very reason they're here in the first place.

The gamers that these small RPGs are intended for do not want more pages. Clinton didn't write Paladn for your local gamers. He wrote it for Iago.

[Ryan Wynne]

While I posted the message on the games of old I agree with Tim on this point.

 For me I like to have lots of information, background, etc when I buy a game.  The information could easily be added to the game and read by those who want to read it and ignored by those who don't.

 Paladin, for example is a game I wouldn't buy.  Why? Because 25 pages at $6 is roughly .19 a page.  That is an expensive page count.

 The indie rpgs that are short want my money, but at 25 pages I don't get the impression that the designer put much effort into the game.  For me a short game gives me the impression of a designer who threw something together really quickly in order to make money.  

  As a designer (and a gamer) I do look at page count.  I want my money's worth.

[iago]

Iago:

Is it hard for you to ignore material that is there? I know many superhero gamers who write their own settings with their games, but they haven't found the fact that settings are included some great hnderence to that. I'm just wondering why you can't ignore it like they. It is much harder for people to create something that isn't there, in my experience, than simply ignoring what is there.

That's a fair question.  I'll start off by saying that Big Setting is not the only thing that doesn't fly for me, nor does it always not fly, it's just the easiest example because it's where most of the "transgressions" occur.

I think for me it is partly because ignoring some of the stuff that's there is not a "zero cost" action.  Sure, I can set aside certain blocks of text as unnecessary to me, but that's not an instant thing and it's not always obvious.  

There's also the case of a lot of material creating a "diluted" effect -- where the question is not one of take this section, leave these others off, but "where are the few sentences in each section that are the core of things?"  Under this particular circumstance, ignoring what isn't interesting to me is a real task.

Then there's the simple superficial test: if I come to a gaming book, and I see that it is thick, I know I'll have to be making the effort of figuring out what I won't want to read in it to get at what I will, and that is often enough of a mark against it that I won't buy it.

Again, this is not a "rule set" that applies to every single purchase for me.  I bought Silver Age Sentinels just fine ... and I darn near read it cover to cover.  Quality can overcome the obstacle of quantity for me, but alas, it is that obstacle that I often encounter first, rather than later.

[Mike Holmes]

I like art and visuals. Like I said, good layout and design is a major selling point for me. Not sure where Clehric got the idea that indie gamers don't like art.

Probably from me. I'm kinda vocal about not caring for art in my games. Don't get me wrong, art won't put me off. But I don't get any value from it, and generally don't like having to pay for it. For what that's worth, I also don't like books; I prefer PDFs. Again, I'll buy a book, but I lament having to spend more on it than I would otherwise.

But I'm hardly all Indie Gamers. There are a couple that agree with me here, but for the most part I think we're in the minority.

And further, while these are my personal predelictions, I hardly expect anyone to adhere to them. In fact price increases for art or book form have never prevented me from buying an RPG. See, I'd pay thirty dollars for most PDF games. I like and support my hobby, and think that RPGs are highly undervalued. So a thirty dollar book isn't going to put me off.

What I do expect is for people to put out games that they think are good, whatever that happens to be. I'll pick and choose from amongst them, and realize that not all of them were made for me.

Mike

[GMSkarka]

Something to think about:

I've been looking at the 1980s RPGs that I loved the most as an adolescent, and I've been struck by the fact that they are, almost universally, really, really SHORT when compared to the 256+ page tomes of today.

Star Frontiers:  32-page basic rules.  64-page Expanded Rules.

Chill (the Pacesetter edition): 64-page rulebook, 32-page monster book.

Gangbusters: 64-page rulebook.

Boot Hill (first edition):  32-page rulebook.

...and these were enough for me to play for YEARS.  

I'm thinking that getting back to brevity is the way to go.

GMS

[Rob Donoghue]

Something to think about:

I've been looking at the 1980s RPGs that I loved the most as an adolescent, and I've been struck by the fact that they are, almost universally, really, really SHORT when compared to the 256+ page tomes of today.

Star Frontiers:  32-page basic rules.  64-page Expanded Rules.

Chill (the Pacesetter edition): 64-page rulebook, 32-page monster book.

Gangbusters: 64-page rulebook.

Boot Hill (first edition):  32-page rulebook.

...and these were enough for me to play for YEARS.  

I'm thinking that getting back to brevity is the way to go.

GMS

Strictly my opinion but:

A-Frickin-Men!

-Rob D.

[Mike Holmes]

Wow, I saw GMS and thought, "Oh, nooo. He's going to say that length is important!" After all he's produced some pretty substantial games, himself. Underworld goes 163 pages.

Shoulda known that he's smarter than that.


Metamorphosis Alpha, 30 pages

Gamma World, 54 pages

Villains and Vigilantes, 48 pages

Mike

[Valamir]

Ha!  I was going to post this exact thing once I got back home and could count them up.  I'd bet money you could put most of the FGU games on that list also.  Where does The Fantasy Trip clock in at?

I don't get the impression that the designer put much effort into the game. For me a short game gives me the impression of a designer who threw something together really quickly in order to make money.

As a designer (and a gamer) I do look at page count. I want my money's worth.

Not to pick on Mr. Wynne, but Ryan, are you familiar with the games on that list (some of which are pretty darn legendary as Seminal works in RPG history).

Do you really mean to imply that on the basis of page count alone you'd be inclined to assume that those games were just "thrown together really quickly in order to make money" if you saw them for the first time offered for sale?

[Mike Holmes]

Where does The Fantasy Trip clock in at?

150+ but that's a total of three books (AM, AW, ITL). And it's the prototype for GURPS which is a heluvalot longer.

Traveller was probably smaller than that with it's 3 half-page sized books.

Mike

[Jake Norwood]

Jake:

I can't believe what I'm hearing. You're saying that indie-designers need to write longer games to be legitimized? Isn't one of our main goals here to change market perceptions to legitimize our games and de-legitimize corporate monoliths?

Well, sort of. If we're trying to gain legitimacy without re-inventing the industry then our games need to be longer and--dare I say--more complete. Paladin was written for Iago, you said, and I agree. However Iago himself won't provide Paladin with legitmacy--it takes a whole community to declare legitimacy (or at least to acknowledge it).

What you're saying (I think) is that we are trying to change the industry so that (for example) shorter games can be considered fully legitimate. That's a goal--a possibility in the future--it isn't "right now," and I was speaking for "right now." That's why TROS has both a setting and a hard-cover. I wanted it to be received as "legitimate."

Do I support games like Paladin and DD? Hell yes. I love both and I'd kill to get a full-length Paladin campaign going. I think that Universalis is the perfect example publishing-wise of the bridge between "Legitimacy now" and "Changing the world for legitmacy tomorrow." Because it exists as a substantial book (even though it's under 100 pages, the small page size makes it's thinness less noticable--petty, sure, but it does matter; Sorcerer is the same way) and contains art it's taken more seriously by people. What a PDF (or worse yet the computer-printed-out PDF in a folder) say is "home-brew, not professional." I don't have a problem with it personally (nor does any of the Forge regulars, I think), but I would have a year ago, before my Forge-born enlightenment. We can't change the world if we can't reach them, and print books with substantial page-counts reach them...PDFs are the B-movies of the RPG industry in the eyes of those that know they exist (and for the rest they simply don't exist).

It's more than length. It's page count, formatting, art, and quality. Not just one or the other.

Isn't one of our main goals here to change market perceptions to legitimize our games and de-legitimize corporate monoliths?

My goal is to be legitmate. I don't care how, really--so I put aside a little bit of idealism and say "seeing as I've dumped thousands of dollars into this dead-end industry, how can I get the right kind of publicity so that I don't have to sell my car?" If that's what Clinton, for example, is looking for, then bigger and more tangible is a real issue. If not (and I assume not), then so what. Rock on. I'll buy them either way.

Again, my whole previous post was about "IF."

Hope that clears things up.

Jake

[lumpley]

I'd rather read 6 good pages that 100 bad ones.

I'll read 6 bad pages.  I won't read 100.  Most game writing, mine too, is for crap.

-Vincent

[Ryan Wynne]

Do you really mean to imply that on the basis of page count alone you'd be inclined to assume that those games were just "thrown together really quickly in order to make money" if you saw them for the first time offered for sale?

 What I am saying is, when I see a game that is $6-10 and 25-35 pages I won't give them a look because I don't think I am getting my money's worth.

  If a .pdf game is going to be priced at $6-10 it better have at least 100 pages or it won't get my money (And I am looking for .pdf games over the traditional store bought games).