Union - ToS: Website Discusion 3-5-03

[Cryostorm]

Hi, Cameron Harsh Here This thread is to discuss the March 5th website update of Union Tides of Steel. If you don't know about our game check out our other thread before looking at the website.

The website is at //www.uniontos.cjb.net

This weeks topic the main story and Close Combat.

Sorry for any grammatical errors from cut down the original texts.

Enjoy,
CYA

[Spooky Fanboy]

Well, having a weakness for "crunchy bits" that have a well-entrenched reason to be there, I like the background story. Psionics are cool!

I'm not sure that, on an individual-to-individual level, the mistake with the machines would sour relationships between the races, considering what each learned fro the other, but perhaps I'm naive in that regard.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, I've got several questions regarding the section on combat.

What happens if two or more players tie for initiative? Is there a reroll? Everyone, or just the people who tied? Which relates to the question of direction of rotation, what if the player to the right and left of the player winning initiative tie? Is there some general rule in the text we've not seen that covers ties? Why isn't initiative linked to character skill at all?

Then again if the defender's die score beats the attacker's die score the attack is blocked/dodged. When the dice tie the attack is considered blocked.

Anything mechanically different about these two results? If not, why differentiate?

You use the term die in what seems to be a plural case as in:

If one combatant has more die from their combo die than another player those die need only to beat the defender's initiative rating.

That's confusing. And unusual; the mistake is usually to use dice as the singluar (which I believe is actually standard use in Great Britain). I mention this one out of the other typos because it seems like it was deliberate, and therfore not likely to be corrected.

The whole colorization for dice seems a bit tricky. My d10s only come in two colors. What I'd do, I suppose is to roll them one at a time and line up the results or something. If you have better, alternate ways, I'd include them in the text.

OK, a character who is attacked gets a "free action". If I read that right, that seems to mean that assuming I'm attacked by five guys, that means that I'm going to get six attacks to their six (they will get one free one after I make my normal attack). So, other than not going first against the majority of opponents, there's no disadvantage to fighting multiple opponents?

I assume that Dex figures into the value of Brawling and Martial Arts Ranks? Because if not then why wouldn't you choose to play a strong brawler over a quick martial artist? For the same level of ability you get more damage. Or are these things determined randomly or something?

All attacks a character makes do the same damage? The only way to increase your damage is to hit with more shots in the combo?

Is strength useless in Melee (despite the fact that the section says that it's important)? I don't see where it comes in. Again, is it part of the calculation of Rank?

Other stuff I noted poking around:

Looking at the Lexicon, I see that MEM is for memory, and apparently what you use to limit skills. I've seen this in several other games before (starting with IQ as limiter in TFT), and the problem often becomes that the best characters are usually ones with genius level memory. Which drives all characters to be that way. Basically characters with less MEM have less facets to them and are just less interesting. I'm really curious to see your chargen.

What is your rationale for mecha? Can they fly? If so, why not have flight frames for shapes? If they can't fly, why aren't they just targets for fighters? Is it just aesthetic (as it is in most Japanimation)? Or is there some rationale that explains mecha? Does mecha combat use the same rules as combat between people? What sort of weapons do these things carry?

Why, given that nukes are available, doesn't the Union just nuke Europa? Is that how they fought back the machine so far?

Just what comes to me looking it all over.

Mike

[Harsh Attack]

SPOOKY:

Well, the species-tension isn't like blacks and whites in the sixties.  It's more like today's racial waters(for most people it's real subtle but there).  Here's why; during the Golden days of the UNION, humans and sprites regarded eachother as gods, we had utter reverence for eachother, the universe was our oyster.  Afterwards however, the reverence was gone, this is an age of tolerance, but not one of respect.

The real reason we chose this social climate is because it's easier to have a fantasy setting with elements that mirror our own lives.  Since most people have encountered racism, or at least racial tension in the world around them, the species-tolerance is much like today's racial-tolerance.

MIKE:

1. there's a reroll for ties between the ones that tied only.

2. initiative is calculated by Wits - 10
 (By the way we have six attributes, Dexterity, Wits, Strength, Intellegence, Perception, Social, Appearance.  Average human level for an attribute is 10, max is 20.  if you a 5 or below, you're handicapped)

3.  No, there's no difference between a block when the defender wins or ties.  However, if the defender crits, he gets a counter attack and the attacker takes damage. *Sorry cam edited this at like 2:00 am, and he wrote some unnecessary things*

4.  Weird "dice" wording... ok, if your combo roll is higher than your opponents' total combo die maximum.  THe exess dice  beyond that are scored against your opponents initiative rating(wits-10).

5. truthfully, we've never actually used the color-coding in our test-plays... what we've done is just line them up blindly and trust people not to cheat by putting their best against their opponents worst(you could do it if you lagged behind a little).  But some instinct within us says you can't "Just trust people" and make it as flimsy as "Line up your dice blindly" in the book.  if you've got an alternate idea, send it to us, cause we're open.  BUT we will be hopefully selling color coded dice sets for use with the game.  Both methods are just as fast(line em' up color to color, or just push em into a line) but the colors one makes sure you can't try and cheat the system.

6. Multiple opponents... hmm, heh actually... we really haven't play-tested that... so the topic never came up.  Most of our combat thus far has been in a round, but it's an awesome point.  Multiple target fighting is real important cause it adds alot to the feel of the fight...  OH, we do have one for ranged quarters.  You just split up your sots between your opponents.
we'll get into ranged quarters later.

7.  Memory is not based on intellegence, it's technically an attribute unto itself.  This is because if your a dumbass, you may still be able to remember how to do lots of stuff.  You can have a dumb football player who knows all his plays on the field by heart.  You can have brainy types who forget stuff all the time(absent minded professor).

8. Mecha!  Mecha started during the gene war as tanks with legs(ala mech-warrior).  However people do like aesthetics for intimidation and style and so some of these walking tanks look a little more humanoid(atlas). Toward the end of the war, they had planes with legs, these had uber mobility.  After the war was over, but before the sprites came, mechs were dumbed down in size and arsenal for peace-keeping reasons(stuff sorta like patlabor)  The aesthetics in these new mechs made them look more suit-like, and therefore more traditional mech-like.  Even more dumbed down were almost literal mechanized armors, barely bigger than the user.  These aren't really mechs but people call them that.  In space aerodynamic designs, and non-clumbsy designs are worthless cause your in space.  This resulted in even more flamboyant looking mechs in space.  and bigger ones too(gundam scale).  After the sprites came... well they got weirder, cause the sprites broght their own brand of technology.  Sprite mechs run off of ethereal energies.  They're powered by funky glowing oozy, touchy-feely stuff.  You feel your mecha to do what you want it to(mechanics is a weird concept to sprites).  Think escaflowne or evangaleon if they glowed at the seams.  Fusion technology made uper powerful mechs, prettier mechs, bigger mechs, more multipurpose mechs, stranger mechs, and eventually smart mechs.
The original smart mechs look like mechs.  they have cockpits, or at least places where cockpits should be, they are humanoid shaped.  However machines built by machines slowly got more alien looking.  By this point the newest ones look completely practical(non-humanoid, many appendages, or no appendages, streamlined design, etc.) That should whet the appitite for more mech stuff in the future.

9. ahh, the tragedy that is man kind.  During the gene war, we hade Contained Area Nuclear Explosives(CANES) small coffin sized bombs that were the ultimate tactical weapon of minimal mass destruction(heh).  Nobody used the big mothers.  And most of those materials were used in the small stuff.  so by the end of the war, we really had no big nukes left.  and we outlawed the CANES.  Not to mention at the end of the gene war a peace movement went into destroying the remaining materials, either by burying them, or throwing them at the sun.  Radioactive and nuclear materials were bought like crazy by the black market for power sources and illeagal weaponry.  During the machine war CANES were remanufactured for shooting at large groups of mechs.  We didn't use the big ones cause, well, they don't work for anything; and in todays world they only exist for political reasons.  So public oppinion was against using the big mothers due to collateral damage.  CANES only blow up like 300 to 500 cubic yards.  When the machines got to our factories around jupiter and took them over, we didn't want to use the big mothers then either.  Cause if we blew up a moon of jupiter, it might fragment and crash into the surface of jupiter, and that could have very undesirable effects...  Our CANES were useless too, cause we couldn't launch them that far.  We were limited to the confines of the asteroid belt and no further.  If we launched anything, they'd shoot it down before it ever got anywhere near them.  SOOOO, all our defense force is positioned on the asteroid belt, always watching the enemies, and when the machines get too close, they are sure to combat the enemy.  These are the tales of the Frontline Security Force(FSF) but we'll talk about that later.

[Mike Holmes]

Since most people have encountered racism, or at least racial tension in the world around them, the species-tolerance is much like today's racial-tolerance.

Might I suggest that you describe racism in terms that either:
1. do not compare it with racism today, or
2. make a very general statement like, "Species-ism exists at the same level that racism does today".

Because if you make a claim to know the level of racism today, you may alienate some people who have a different viewpoint. Also, the game will be stronger, I think, if people can project their own viewpoint of that subject on the game, rather than trying to conform to yours.

Just an opinion.

1. there's a reroll for ties between the ones that tied only.

I'm a stickler for these things to be enumerated well. People often drop the ball on this. Let's see if I'm clear:
1. Check for ties amongst the highest rollers.
2. If there is a tie amongst the highest rollers, they re-roll until a winner is determined.
3. Check the players to the left and right of the winner for ties.
4. If there is a tie, between these players, they roll off to see which direction play goes in.

Is that it? If so, it needs to be in the rules in some fashion like that.

2. initiative is calculated by Wits - 10

So in your game skill does not affect who hits first at all. This is pretty standard, but some people think it's unrealistic. Others think that going first isn't neccesarily a good thing, and have rules that reflect that. Have you looked at TROS, yet? You can download a quickstart set of rules at the site. Another option is to drop initiative per se altogether. See Zenobia.

(By the way we have six attributes, Dexterity, Wits, Strength, Intellegence, Perception, Social, Appearance.  Average human level for an attribute is 10, max is 20.  if you a 5 or below, you're handicapped)

That seems pretty standard (I'll bet I can find some D&D clone out there somewhere that has exactly the same list). Are you sure you wouldn't want to come up with a list that reflects what your game is about a bit more precisely?

3.  No, there's no difference between a block when the defender wins or ties.  However, if the defender crits, he gets a counter attack and the attacker takes damage.

How do you "Crit"? I don't think that was in there, either.

4.  Weird "dice" wording... ok, if your combo roll is higher than your opponents' total combo die maximum.  THe exess dice  beyond that are scored against your opponents initiative rating(wits-10).

I understand the rule. I was just commenting on the impropper grammar.

5. truthfully, we've never actually used the color-coding in our test-plays... what we've done is just line them up blindly and trust people not to cheat by putting their best against their opponents worst(you could do it if you lagged behind a little).  But some instinct within us says you can't "Just trust people" and make it as flimsy as "Line up your dice blindly" in the book.

But you can. This is a problem that lots of designers have. They see other people as potential abusers of their system. So they devise ways to prevent the abuse. This shouldn't even be attempted in cases like this where the abuse ends up just being cheating (and even in some cases where it represents play that might distort the intentions of a rule).

Just make the rule something like, "Each player puts their dice in a line, without looking at the other players roll. Then the lines are compared die by die. Don't do it in the middle of the table, in fact. Just have players announce their results to each other. Attacker first says "4", devender responds with "hit" or "miss". The "threat" of other players looking over your shoulder will make you play fair. If it doesn't then there's a problem in the group that the game can't solve.

BUT we will be hopefully selling color coded dice sets for use with the game.  Both methods are just as fast(line em' up color to color, or just push em into a line) but the colors one makes sure you can't try and cheat the system.

Have you priced dice? This is going to be costly. How do you deliver the dice, along with the book as a boxed set? Even more expensive. Hav you noticed that nobody puts dice in their games anymore? And boxed sets are rare? Non-existant in the indie-community.

Not saying it can't be done. But I think there are better solutions.

I do like the die comparison thing, tho, BTW.

6. Multiple opponents... hmm, heh actually... we really haven't play-tested that... so the topic never came up.  Most of our combat thus far has been in a round, but it's an awesome point.  Multiple target fighting is real important cause it adds alot to the feel of the fight...  OH, we do have one for ranged quarters.  You just split up your sots between your opponents.

OK, that's scary. You need to be playing this game, playing now, and playing a lot. For specific mechanics, you can just set up simple situations to test things. Fight lots of mock combats with lots of different situations. Push the system to see what it does well, and what it dles not. So, have a fight between two deulists on log in water. Have a situation where a guy is attacked by fifty mutant rats. One guy on a wall drops rocks on another's head as he tries to make his way up a ladder. Two guys try to force another into a cell. A suicidal man tries to grab another guy and plummet over a cliff with him. Three guys draw guns on each other at the same time, but they each are aiming at the guy who is aiming at the third guy (and not at them). A man is "covered" by another with a gun and wants to make a distraction so he can escape. Etc, etc.

Because players will get into these sorts of situations and want the system to handle all of it well. So you need to determine how to make the system flexible enough to handle a variety of situations.

7.  Memory is not based on intellegence, it's technically an attribute unto itself.

Great, but you missed my point altogether. I'm not concerned with what you call it, but with how it will affact character design. My experience has been that using such an ability as a limiter makes it so that you never have the "absent minded professor" precisely because he won't know anything. Or rather, the stat tends to be unbalancing in that it's what gives characters most of their interesting abilities. Again, your chargen methods will be telling.

8. Mecha!  

Cool descriptions. None of which make any sense from a tactical POV. Mechs do not now make, and never have made, any sense at all. All of these things are more susceptible to being taken out than a jet fighter. And yet, they seem to be more costly to build (they certainly would today). The question is, what technology makes mechs worthwhile (that can't be put into a jet), or are mechs just there because they're cool. The second option is valid. It just should be made explicit. As in, "We know mechs don't make any sense from a tactical POV, but they're so cool that we wanted them in anyway. So please ignore the fact that they aren't really pausible."

Even Battle Tech had some BS explanation for why Mechs were in use, but it was so lame that I can't remember it now. Would you like help in coming up with a good BS explanation? Or do you have one already?

9. ahh, the tragedy that is man kind.  During the gene war, we hade Contained Area Nuclear Explosives(CANES) small coffin sized bombs that were the ultimate tactical weapon of minimal mass destruction(heh).

Um, there are smaller nukes available in today's arsenal. Having been in the field artillery, for example, I can tall you that a nuclear warhead can be mounted on a 155 mm artillery shell, and fired from a cannon. The M109s that we used look like tanks. So, what I mean to say is that there are armored vehicles today that can fire six inch diameter atomic rounds. They are, of course, relatively low yield, but that seems to be what you describe.

The question is do you have a defense postulated for such a weapon.

Nobody used the big mothers.  And most of those materials were used in the small stuff.  so by the end of the war, we really had no big nukes left.

Seems unlikely. The arsenal right now is probably enough to destroy the atmosphere with the little nukes we have available. Why would you need to strip the big nukes? And give up your end of the mutual assured destruction deal. Wouldn't that lead to your opponent using their stratecig arms on you? I mean they're already using tactical nuclear weapons, the only thing holding them back is your MAD capaccity.

we outlawed the CANES.  Not to mention at the end of the gene war a peace movement went into destroying the remaining materials, either by burying them, or throwing them at the sun.  Radioactive and nuclear materials were bought like crazy by the black market for power sources and illeagal weaponry.  During the machine war CANES were remanufactured for shooting at large groups of mechs.  We didn't use the big ones cause, well, they don't work for anything; and in todays world they only exist for political reasons.

"don't work for anything"? What does that mean?

So public oppinion was against using the big mothers due to collateral damage.  CANES only blow up like 300 to 500 cubic yards.

Um, if you want a blast only that big, why use nukes?  Check this weapon system out (pay special attention to the ATACMS which can take out a cubic Kilometer)? Or, a current fave for taking out terrorists in caves, the "Daisycutter" (these are admittedly large, but then, they take out more area than you describe; at least 600 Yards).
You just don't need nukes with the dirty problems they cause even at today's tech level. Much less a future tech level.

the machines got to our factories around jupiter and took them over, we didn't want to use the big mothers then either.  Cause if we blew up a moon of jupiter, it might fragment and crash into the surface of jupiter, and that could have very undesirable effects...

Farfetched in the extreme. First, no nukes could destroy a moon. You have no concept of the scales here. They could, however eliminate everything off the surface of the body. And even if we did drop a moon into Jupiter, the chances of it affecting Earth in any way are slim and none.

Our CANES were useless too, cause we couldn't launch them that far.  We were limited to the confines of the asteroid belt and no further.  If we launched anything, they'd shoot it down before it ever got anywhere near them.

OK, this is the only thing that makes any sense so far. They have an anti-ballistic defense of some sort.

SOOOO, all our defense force is positioned on the asteroid belt, always watching the enemies, and when the machines get too close, they are sure to combat the enemy.  These are the tales of the Frontline Security Force(FSF) but we'll talk about that later.

Given that the FSF is probably willing to use nukes from what I gather above, seems that they are likely pretty safe. That said, the asteroid belt is waaaay to large to defend, and can easily be gone around (it is, after all only two dimensional). Defenses would have to be wherever colonies are.

Given anti-ballistic systems, however, these would seem to be enough to destroy any incoming enemy. I mean, if it can destroy a ship that's got a nuclear warhead, why can't it destroy a ship loaded with mechs?

This is not to say that all this can't be done. You just need much better BS, IMO.

Mike

[RobMuadib]

So public oppinion was against using the big mothers due to collateral damage.  CANES only blow up like 300 to 500 cubic yards.

Um, if you want a blast only that big, why use nukes?  Check this weapon system out (pay special attention to the ATACMS which can take out a cubic Kilometer)? Or, a current fave for taking out terrorists in caves, the "Daisycutter" (these are admittedly large, but then, they take out more area than you describe; at least 600 Yards).
You just don't need nukes with the dirty problems they cause even at today's tech level. Much less a future tech level.

Just to chime in on a favorite subject. The Air Force is nearly ready to deploy a '2nd generation' Daisycutter, which they have labeled the MOAB (Massive Ordnance Air Burst) which is supposed to be 21,000lbs, to the daisy cutters 15. So, tac nukes aren't particularly necessary or reasonable to use. But certainly add to the scorched earth post-apocalyptic ambiance of things.

best

[Mike Holmes]

Hey, I don't mind the use of TacNukes. :-)

I'm just saying that with current technology these already exist (and have since the seventies or so, I think) and are much more destructive than they describe in their text. If you want less destruction than a Nuke, we already have those weapons as well without using nukes, and one would ask, why add radiation to a blast if one didn't need to? Scorched Earth? More like nuclear winter guys. At some point the radiation will come home to roost whether it be via the enemy or via the atmosphere.

Now, if it were Earth vs. Mars. But then the first striker wins, and wins decisively. If MAD is possible then nobody uses nukes.

Nukes are a technology that sci-fi designers don't always consider well. We already have horrifically powerful weapons. We won't even need anything more powerful unless defenses become available. And that's hardd to imagine. Yes, you can stop delivery systems. But once a nuke goes off, it's hard to imagine a system that allows you to survive at point blank.

So, in Traveller, you have the "nuclear damper" which makes nukes inert, or greatly reduces the blast. In StarFire, you have drive fields which make nukes detonate so far from the actual ship that it takes a tiny fraction of the blast. Etc.

But point defense is all or nothing. You either stop the delivery, or poof.  

These BS explanations work for me. Gotta have your BS in line.

Mike

[Spooky Fanboy]

"Captain, we're running low on Bullshittium Crystals, we can't keep the Ludicous Engine running without more Doesntmatter!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.