Layout Prices

[quozl]

The Art Prices thread got me wondering what people charge for rpg layout.  I assume it would cost per page.  Also, what does layout include when paying someone to do it for you?

[Matt Snyder]

The Art Prices thread got me wondering what people charge for rpg layout.  I assume it would cost per page.  Also, what does layout include when paying someone to do it for you?

Here's my experience. I've done a fair amount of RPG layout work over the last year and more. I do not charge by the page, or hour or any other rubric. I charge a flat fee for a job. That entails the layout and design of the piece, and usually several rounds of corrections (often more than I'd like to do for the pay I get).

For most Forgers I've charged what I consider an extremely cheap rate of $100-$200. I consider it extremely cheap because this is "real" freelance designer fees can be anywhere from $30-$100+ an hour. I have spent at least 8-10 hours of work on the kinds of projects we're talking about.

However, all this said brings me to my current position. I do "Forge" layouts cheaply because I appreciate the folks I know and their work. Elsewhere, I've charged as high as $800. But I have yet to be paid for over half of these jobs. Over the course of months.

So, my current position is that potential clients either can't afford me, or aren't prompt in paying me. The result is that I don't think I'll be doing anymore freelance work without special arrangements / relationships and money up front.

Moral of the story? Layout deserves respect in the industry -- even among indies, and my experience seems to show it's very lacking. Most folks do their own layouts, because they think they know what they're doing, and don't want to pay someone who does. I can hardly blame that approach! But I do not see the respect and professionalism folks show toward, say, illustrators.

So it goes.

[Matt Wilson]

Jonathan:

Layout can include a bunch of things, depending on what you need. It can bleed over into the graphic design realm, or it can be plain old "I want 0.75 inch margins and page numbers."

In the non-game world, I can charge upwards of $50 an hour for design of a brochure-like piece. The less guidance I'm given up front, the more I can charge.

In the game world, I think there's more of a comraderie where pricing is concerned. One, game designers don't have that kind of moolah usually, and two, the designers/artists/whoever like the stuff way more than "day job" stuff and want to be involved. I'd probably do a lot of layout for next to nothing, or even just nothing, to further the cause of gaming.

I'd suggest posting about what you'd like to have done for you if you're seriously interested. Do you have in your mind an idea of what the layout should look like, or what?

-Matt

[Chris Passeno]

Though I can't speak much from the Freelance part of Layout Charges, I can speak about Printer's Prices for Layout and Design.

I will start off by saying that a Design and Typesetting department is a black hole.  Printers will never get out of it what they put into it, nor charge what they need to make a profit.  A printer will keep feeding that hole what it must have, i.e. software updates, Mac's and other PC's, media, qualified people, etc..  Throwing money by the buckets into that department just to stay "current".  Think about it... software needs updated usually about every half year.  There are usually 10-15 programs that are in use everyday.  Let me do the math on that...  I repeat, a black hole.

Complicate this matter with the fact that everyone and their mother has a computer, so that means that they are designers.  After all why should I pay someone the sit infront of a com-pu-ter, when I got one of them things at home?

That being said, a printer will charge between $85 - $120+ per hour to do Layout and Design work.

[Adam]

There are usually 10-15 programs that are in use everyday.  Let me do the math on that...  I repeat, a black hole.

While I don't doubt your credentials and experience in the slightest, Chris, this doesn't hold true in all cases. A quick run-down of all the software I use for graphic design at Guardians Of Order:

* MacOS 9.2 [No major reason to migrate to OSX since Quark isn't OSX native yet.]
* Quark 4.11 [Not sure about the exact minor version.]
* Photoshop 5.5
* Photoshop Filters [An old version of Eye Candy, back when it was still called Alien Skin.]
* Premiere + Video Pics Plugin [For capturing images from anime; naturally, few layout jobs outside of licensed products require or can make use of this.]
* Microsoft Office 97 [Word for dealing with documents, Excel for making indexes. Could be replaced with free software with relatively little hassle.]

Most of that software will be good as long as the company allows it to be good; we have little reason to upgrade any of it as long as we stay consistent throughought the company. Same thing with hardware - I'm not sure how old the G3 I'm using is, but it does the job.

On my PC I use a lot more software, but I also do web development on it, which typically requires a wider array of tools in my experience. For layout on the PC I basically use the same stuff, except InDesign 2 instead of Quark.

[Matt Snyder]

There are usually 10-15 programs that are in use everyday.  Let me do the math on that...  I repeat, a black hole.

While I don't doubt your credentials and experience in the slightest, Chris, this doesn't hold true in all cases. A quick run-down of all the software I use for graphic design at Guardians Of Order:

Adam, I believe Chris is refering the a printer's need to have a myriad of programs because customers/clients use a huge variety of platforms and software packages. He's saying the printer needs to be compatable with EVERYONE. Hence, dozens of applications. For a person or company, they can get by with 2-5 items (say, Quark, Photoshop, Acrobat, for example).

[Adam]

Adam, I believe Chris is refering the a printer's need to have a myriad of programs because customers/clients use a huge variety of platforms and software packages. He's saying the printer needs to be compatable with EVERYONE. Hence, dozens of applications. For a person or company, they can get by with 2-5 items (say, Quark, Photoshop, Acrobat, for example).

Uh, yeah. Don't mind me; I need more sleep.

[And I forgot Illustrator from my list of programs. I need more sleep.]

[Michael Hopcroft]

It helps to have a really good relationship with someone just starting out in the field.

Right now I have a layout guy who works for $10 per billable hour. If I'm doing an entire book, I can somtimes negotiate a single price for the entire project. I don;t know for sure how much longer I'll have this luxury, however, as the guy is getting more and more work and has less and less time to do stuff for me.

[quozl]

First of all, thanks to everyone who posted!

I'd suggest posting about what you'd like to have done for you if you're seriously interested. Do you have in your mind an idea of what the layout should look like, or what?

-Matt

O.K., here's an example: I want a 24-36 page document to look like a 200 year-old manuscript.  What would I need to provide?  For example, do I need to provide fonts, decorative border art, an example page, or anything else?

[Chris Passeno]

Matt:   Correct, we have to be compatible with everyone, which includes the MS family, RIP and Trapping software, and various other smaller programs.

Adam:  No problem, :)

[Matt Wilson]

First of all, thanks to everyone who posted!

I'd suggest posting about what you'd like to have done for you if you're seriously interested. Do you have in your mind an idea of what the layout should look like, or what?

-Matt

O.K., here's an example: I want a 24-36 page document to look like a 200 year-old manuscript.  What would I need to provide?  For example, do I need to provide fonts, decorative border art, an example page, or anything else?

All right, that's a pretty good start. Are you talking a page that looks like what was done with D&D's Forgotten Realms books?
If you have fonts in mind, and art to make the page look old, then the layout person won't have too much work to do. Most of what it would take to achieve your vision would be more graphic design than basic layout. You'd probably need a big image to use as a background, which might not be too hard to do with a program like CorelDRAW or similar.

[quozl]

If you have fonts in mind, and art to make the page look old, then the layout person won't have too much work to do. Most of what it would take to achieve your vision would be more graphic design than basic layout. You'd probably need a big image to use as a background, which might not be too hard to do with a program like CorelDRAW or similar.

I understand that the graphic design person would take care of the background images and decorative art but who does the font selection if the specific font is not indicated?  

Also, I was under the impression that graphic design and layout were usually handled by the same person in the RPG industry.  Is that not correct?

[Adam]

I understand that the graphic design person would take care of the background images and decorative art but who does the font selection if the specific font is not indicated?

The graphic designer. Obviously, the person giving the assignment would usually have some ideas, but it's normally the graphic designers job to dig through piles of fonts to find the appropriate ones.

Also, I was under the impression that graphic design and layout were usually handled by the same person in the RPG industry.  Is that not correct?

It usually is, but not always. Depends on the size of the company, the product line, and the size of the product line. For example, at GOO, the anime Ultimate Fan Guides were designed by Jeff Mackintosh, but I do the layout for them now. However, on the BESM line, I've started doing both the design and layout for the supplements [with help from Jeff, since he's the Art Director.]

In the case of a freelancer working for an indie, they would almost always be doing both design and layout, unless the publisher had templates/graphics/etc already done.

Best,
Adam

[Gold Rush Games]

For those interested in our "corporate" contract design rates, see http://www.goldenpillarpublishing.com/optserv.html

 We also have discounted rates (such as for GPA members), but those are negotiated on a case by case basis.