Slayer of Dragon RPG: Basic Edition

[ThreeGee]

Hey all,

As promised, I present Slayer of Dragon RPG: Basic Edition. First, a few links to provide an historical perspective:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5531
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=2990

The website in my sig provides the following links:
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_basic_screen.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_basic_print.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_character_sheet.pdf

As you can see, this ain't yo' daddy's Slayer. Slayer Basic is lean and mean, just the way I like it. I can't use the N-word around here, so allow me to say that it is cinematic and leave it at that.

In the past, I have gotten great feedback, so I look forward to folks' reactions. I welcome criticism of any kind, including first reactions. I want Slayer to be as easy to use as possible, drawing people in and keeping them around.

Anyway, that's enough of me talking. I will let the text speak for itself.

Thanks,
Grant

[Kester Pelagius]

Greetings All,

My rusty two-cents.


RE: slayer_basic_screen.pdf

The PDF:  Clean.  24 standard sized pages.  Clear and not hard on the eyes.

The Game:  Simple.  Three stats.  Quick.

Favorite word/concept: "verticality"

Favorite quote: "So, you want to be a Mad Overlord, do you?"



RE: slayer_basic_print.PDF

Totals 12 pages.  Print as chap book (pages print as 4/21, 20/5, etc); which means print, fold, and staple.


Overall not bad.  Minimal use of color.  Shouldn't tax jet printers.

So what are you witing for?  There's the links, right click already!  ;)


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Christoffer Lernö]

Ok, I tried to play it but I had some problems. First of all from the basic rules it's not clear that how many moves you get or how you use the points you have over. The older rules gave you one move for every skill level over 2 but it doesn't seem to make sense. Do you automatically get the moves from 1-2?

Anyway, doing damage... do you only give damage if you succeed with a critical (?!) that doesn't make sense but the rules seem to say that. And if not, and you KO people when you exceed stamina+star power well...

I made one character with Pow 5, Quick 1, Ki 1 and Punch 4. This guy could hit FRIGGIN hard knocking out everything, taking what people dished out and easily hitting everyone. Somehow the stats seem a little unbalanced.
Ki easily seems like the most useless of them.

It's very unclear how "block" is supposed work. When do you use it/when can you use it?

Further on it seems very useless to have more than 1 major type of attack. Especially punch and kick which are very similar. Since the ranking=skill you'd like to up the rating a lot rather than have a wide selection. A wide selection is more colour than anything, right? So shouldn't it be more easy to get to them?

Oh, and speaking of colour - may I suggest that stunts should be allowed to be done for free without spending valuable void points?

It seems like the stats ought to balance out better. Maybe you could use ki to add to power or to absorb attacks. That could be cool.

I'd like to see more ability to combine moves of different groups. Maybe make the move aquisition separate from your skill (again?) because after all it's mostly about colour anyway. My feeling is that the moves aren't THAT balance upsetting anyway. It would be neater to be able to combine them into a custom fighting style.

As you know, I like the old Slayer and I think you are onto some great ideas but the current Slayer is very much an "in-between" product right now. A lot of promising ideas hasn't been taken to their full potential yet and it shows. Right now it's not very "wow!" as far as the mechanics go but it's obvious a lot of things aren't there yet that will work itself in later.

I'm sure you'll get there soon enough though. Keep up the good work!

(P.S. Did you get my e-mail?)

[ThreeGee]

Hey Kester, Christoffer,

Thanks for replying. Your first impressions are very illuminating.

Kester, I am glad you like the layout. I wanted people to be able to play just as quickly as possible.

Chris, I heartily approve of your attempts to break the system, but I think I have an answer to most of your questions. Let's see...

Under Techniques, the rules state that levels over three require moves to be learned separately.

Yep, you got the damage system right. However, you are forgetting about Star Power. That is understandable, since I somehow cut that section from the rules by mistake. Oops. Anyway, assume the player characters all have three extra points of Power for defense against knock-out, but most npcs will not have this advantage.

Ki is a lot more important that it looks. Ki powers your special moves, and a decent boss is probably not going down to basic moves without a lot of hardship. Plus, when the Ki-attack techniques (sorcery) are released, the imbalance against Ki-light characters will be even more exaggerated. Take a look at Punch 5: Strike the Spirit.

Oops again. The Block text makes no sense. Look at the description of the Level 1 move for an explanation. Defense = Quickness + Block, until a new action is taken.

All Punch moves have a +1 bonus to Skill, and all kick moves have a +1 bonus to Power. The numbers have already been adjusted, but if you look at the basic moves, you will see the difference. Also, Kick has most of the multiple attack moves. However, now that you have mentioned it, I might reconsider some of the modifiers to make punch and kick more dissimilar. Wrestle and Block are very different from the other two. I really do not see the comparison.

Do you think fifteen starting points for techniques would be better? I like the idea of giving people too much rope, but I suppose I should be nicer.

Stunts can be done without spending Void. Void is only ever spent to override the Overlord's decisions.

Ki already adds power to attacks. That's mostly what Ki does, but I like the idea of using Ki to defend against attacks. Any ideas for a cool Block move that uses Ki?

Every fighting game and its brother separates skill from the movelist. I think it lacks style to do it that way. Is there a reason you like the idea of cherry-picking?

I confess that I just finished writing the revisions, so I have not yet had a chance to playtest. That will be the true measure of the game.

If it makes you feel better, I am thinking of going back through the old versions and making Slayer Tactics, in line with the original design concepts but hopefully better implemented.

Thanks,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

Under Techniques, the rules state that levels over three require moves to be learned separately.

Yeah, but HOW do you learn them when you make a new character?

Yep, you got the damage system right. However, you are forgetting about Star Power. That is understandable, since I somehow cut that section from the rules by mistake. Oops. Anyway, assume the player characters all have three extra points of Power for defense against knock-out, but most npcs will not have this advantage.

I counted that in.

Ki is a lot more important that it looks. Ki powers your special moves, and a decent boss is probably not going down to basic moves without a lot of hardship. Plus, when the Ki-attack techniques (sorcery) are released, the imbalance against Ki-light characters will be even more exaggerated. Take a look at Punch 5: Strike the Spirit.

That also confused me. I have KI of 4. Does it mean I can only do say 2 KI 2 strikes in the whole scene? That... would suck. :) Or is it simply the minimum for me to use that move?

Oops again. The Block text makes no sense. Look at the description of the Level 1 move for an explanation. Defense = Quickness + Block, until a new action is taken.

This might be much cooler in real play, but I don't really understand how it would work well. Why would someone go for blocks instead of attacking? It doesn't make much sense except as an extremely defensive tactical move, and in movies that's not really how it works. But I agree video games have stuff like that.

I'd like to see blocks as something you could invoke when you got hit, or that you automatically could select a blocking move which happened if the opponent missed.

GM: "The Demonkahn attacks you with a Fury Claw Strike"
Player: "I use No-Shadow-Block"
GM: "Oooh, he misses so you succeed with the block!"
... cut to resolution of what happens because of the block[/list:u]

All Punch moves have a +1 bonus to Skill, and all kick moves have a +1 bonus to Power.

I just mean it seems a whole lot more optimal to be good at punching (or some other single type of attack) only rather than say both punch and kick. That encourages characters to be rather boring specialists on a single type of attack.

Do you think fifteen starting points for techniques would be better? I like the idea of giving people too much rope, but I suppose I should be nicer.

I think it's not so much the starting points as the effect of making characters having to stick to a single "path".

Void is only ever spent to override the Overlord's decisions.

Amusingly it says that "what void points can be used for is determined by the Overlord" or somesuch. What's it gonna be? :)

Ki already adds power to attacks. That's mostly what Ki does, but I like the idea of using Ki to defend against attacks. Any ideas for a cool Block move that uses Ki?

It's a permanent bonus? Ki as a defense can be everything from you know "Iron Shirt" to Taiji style absorbing and redirecting.

As for the system. I made this character with Pow 5, Quick 1, Ki 1 fighting a character with Pow 2, Quick 4, Ki 1.
One had punch 4, the other had Kick 4.

Character 1 has a basic hitting power of 5 and Character 2 har a ko limit of 5. Am I doing something wrong or doesn't it seem like Character 1 has a definite advantage?

I really liked the way the initiative worked though. COOL.

[ThreeGee]

Hey Chris,

New characters do not get additional moves. Players need something to look forward to, after all.

Yep. Two moves with a cost of 2 Ki/move = all 4 points. Better make it count.

Let me just give an example, using your characters. Peter has an initiative die of d12, giving him an average roll of 4, and Kevin has an initiative die of d6, giving him an average roll of 2. Kevin goes first and opens with a wrist-lock (no sense in going for massive damage--might as well go for skillfully placed blows to soften up Peter). Skill 1 Power 1 vs. Quickness 1 Power 8. Kevin needs to roll 7+ on two dice to grapple Peter. Let's say he hits, so Peter now has one hold against him. Both go simultaneously. Kevin blocks, Peter goes for the knock-out with a right-cross to the skull. Skill 5 Power 6 vs. Quickness 5 Power 5. Peter needs to roll 9+ for the knockout or 12 for a point of damage. 28% chance of ending the fight in the first blow. Let's say he misses. Kevin goes again, grabbing the other arm (hey! he's a kicker--why not). Let's say he again succeeds and has the other arm. The Overlord rules that Peter cannot punch until he breaks free, so Peter uses the old wrasslin' moves himself to get free. Skill 1 Power 4 vs. Quickness 5 Power 5. Oops! There is no line on the chart for this imbalance. As long as Kevin can keep up the defense, he can knee Peter into submission.

Short. Brutal. To the point.

A more balanced character would probably have made mincemeat of Peter because he is such an easy target. If Kevin had Block 2, he would have an effective defense of 7. Peter with just one more point of Quickness could probably get the drop on himself consistantly enough to win.

Ultimately, though, I think you are attacking a straw-man. In 3E, a cleric will completely annihilate a thief, yet both are considered balanced. 3E is team-oriented, not PvP, and both classes provide excellent means of protagonization. Kevin is a great mook-killer and Peter is good against bosses. They are both amazingly good at what they do, but their styles are completely different, and neither will ever command the advanced moves in their styles. That sounds boring to me.

Moving on, what would be the point of auto-blocking? I have no idea where you are coming from on this one. What is different about that from how defense already works?

Would you be happier if I reintroduced Skill as an attribute? That really seems fraught with peril. Just buy a high skill and cherry-pick from the move lists.

I am glad you approve of the initiative system. It is funny that you think Power is so overpowered (ba-boom-ching) because I was thinking that maybe Quickness was a bit too much, affecting both defense and speed of attacks. Most games break at this very point.

Thanks,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

Yep. Two moves with a cost of 2 Ki/move = all 4 points. Better make it count.

But KI gets used up both if a move hits and if it doesn't hit, right? Seems pretty worthless to me. I would think a 4,2,1 character could beat the living CRAP out of a 1,2, KI 4 character every friggin day. Am I wrong?

Let me just give an example, using your characters.

That's nice, but the blocking thing still only seems to make sense when they go at it at the same initiative. Anyway, let me tell you my scenario and let me know where I went wrong:

Pete rolls 10, Kevin rolls 5. Kevin opens up with some kind of kick (I assumed you had moves to begin with, so I used and Axe Kick Vith skill -2 and Pow +3. That's a total POW of 5. Kevin hits, bringing Pete's stamina down to 4 (but not knocking him out as that would require an attack of power 8).

Kevin now rolls a 6. Which means Pete has a chance, but he misses. Pete rolls a 1 for initiative which means finally they go at the same inititative. Both hits but Pete is using a hook so he knocks Kevin out. Kevin has no chance of knock-out strikes.[/list:u]
Maybe it's the wrestling I should have done or whatnot. I was just concerned. If you say there is no problem I believe you. You've got plenty of more experience with the system.

Moving on, what would be the point of auto-blocking? I have no idea where you are coming from on this one. What is different about that from how defense already works?

Like I said, I don't really see the use for blocks unless you have a significantly higher quickness than your opponent. It reminds me of the old BRP style combat with an Attack% and one Parry%. You could choose to either attack or parry. Of course, if you parried you had no chance to attack but probably had to parry the next round again. And all you did was slightly lower the chances of the opponent hitting. In the end, just attacking back seemed a whole lot better.

Would you be happier if I reintroduced Skill as an attribute? That really seems fraught with peril. Just buy a high skill and cherry-pick from the move lists.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I just point out what at a glance seemed a little problematic, like that people has no real need to spread out their points. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I'm bringing it up just in case.

I am glad you approve of the initiative system. It is funny that you think Power is so overpowered (ba-boom-ching) because I was thinking that maybe Quickness was a bit too much,

I think that maybe Power has a breakpoint, in that as soon as you have enough power to easily do ko's your efficiency starts to rocket. Maybe it doesn't work like that in actual play, but it looked like that could happen.

[ThreeGee]

Hey Chris,

Try this on for size: does the problem you have with the system lie in the fact that Power and Skill are coarsely-grained, but Quickness and Ki are much more forgiving? So, to guarantee success, you would jack Power and Skill as high as possible, sacrificing the less tangible rewards of a high Quickness or Ki?

Honestly, I would never buy Ki up first, but that was true of the old version, as well. Ki is a mid- to late-game buy.

How obvious is it to you that a Quickness 5 character is three times faster than a Quickness 1 character, on average, and twice as fast as a Quickness 3 character? The difference in average initiatives jumps by .7 per step, starting at 1.25 and going up to 4. On a poor roll, a slow character can easily be left in the dust, due to the open-ended nature of the rolls.

Do you think that Blocking does not do enough? Maybe it should also add to resisting knock-out, in addition to avoiding a hit in the first place? Is it clear that blocks last until the character decides to do something else?

Going with your example, those initiative rolls do not make any sense. Kevin cannot roll a six on initiative. Are you sure you are doing it right? Also, Pete is so obviously a brick-shithouse that Keven would never open with a hard-hitting move like Axe Kick. Pete needs to be softened up a bit, first. For kicks, I would use Snap Kick about a zillion times until his Stamina came down to managable levels.

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place? Slayer is not a tactical game. Let me repeat that: Slayer is not a tactical game. Okay. And you have not even begun to talk about stunts. Just about every martial arts movie ever has a scene involving jumps and/or kicking logs. Sounds like easy pickin's for Kevin, given his huge advantage in speed, if he gets tired of just kicking Pete where it hurts.

Am I completely off my rocker? Am I overlooking something obvious?

Anyway, I have updated the pdfs with corrections and clarifications.

Later,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

First off, let me say that my input is only the way I understood the system trying it out on my own. Don't take what I write as a wish-list on where to take the game. I'm just trying out the system and writing where I run into problems.

So you ask me for example:

Try this on for size: does the problem you have with the system lie in the fact that Power and Skill are coarsely-grained, but Quickness and Ki are much more forgiving? So, to guarantee success, you would jack Power and Skill as high as possible, sacrificing the less tangible rewards of a high Quickness or Ki?

I can't say I have a problem with the system, I'm just not clear about why one shouldn't optimize a few stats. That's all. It seemed more useful to have higher power.

Honestly, I would never buy Ki up first, but that was true of the old version, as well. Ki is a mid- to late-game buy.

Hmm.. them maybe it's not so good that they are treated on equal ground or?

Do you think that Blocking does not do enough?

I'm just thinking that as a skill it kinda gets boring: "What are you good at?" "Well I can't hit worth a damn and I can't kick nor wrestle, but I kick ass at running away". :) I might be totally wrong though. I just don't see much fun being able to not get hit, especially since the block disappears once you do something.

A random thought: What about making block -> reversals? I know there is already such a block ability, but what I was thinking something like this (just random thoughts):
Let's say this reversal skill mostly works like the block. However, when people attack you you also roll a "reversal roll". The opponent rolls a normal attack roll (no bonus to defense for you). There are then 4 possibilities:

He succeeds, you fail: You get hit
He fails, you fail: It's blocked/missed
He succeeds, you succeed: Reversal
He fails, you succeed: Full Reversal

Reversal would work giving you a free attack. With a full reversal that attack would automatically hit (no roll).

You can extend this into a movelist where you can reverse ki-strikes, fireballs and all sorts of stuff.

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place? Slayer is not a tactical game. Let me repeat that: Slayer is not a tactical game.

Do you mean that as in "game balance is not important?" and trying to limit exploiting the rules isn't a priority anymore?


On a quite different note: Have you ever thought of adding combos?

Again, this is your game. I'm probably misunderstanding half of the rules anyway. I don't know what's best for your game. Ignore the parts that don't make sense. Ok? :)

[ThreeGee]

Hey Chris,

Of course it is my game, but you are the only one who consistantly responds, so I assume that makes you my target audience. In a sense, you represent all the people I will never meet who might like the game.

However, you keep asking questions that assume a lot of things that do not make sense for the game. The players are not competing against each other. They are competing against the world. By taking the most extreme starting characters that you can build and setting them against each other, of course the system breaks down. That happens in every game. If an extreme character has a significant and constant advantage over a more reasonable character, there is a problem, and so far, I do not see a problem. Your one-trick ponies have significant weaknesses that can be exploited.

Reversal: Now you're cooking with gas. I think it might give too much advantage to being the defender, but I guess that's how real fights work. I will think about it.

Combos would just be an excuse for high Power, low Quickness characters to perform the same moves over and over, rather than suffer for their terrible initiative rolls.

Later,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

However, you keep asking questions that assume a lot of things that do not make sense for the game. The players are not competing against each other. They are competing against the world. By taking the most extreme starting characters that you can build and setting them against each other, of course the system breaks down.

So what do they fight then? Aren't their opponents rated the same way? Monsters tend to have even more pronounced weaknesses and strength than player characters in my experience, but that might not be so in your game.

Reversal: Now you're cooking with gas. I think it might give too much advantage to being the defender, but I guess that's how real fights work. I will think about it.

You could always build in a way to counter a reversal(!) a.k.a "chicken" in Tekken terms.

Combos would just be an excuse for high Power, low Quickness characters to perform the same moves over and over, rather than suffer for their terrible initiative rolls.

On the contrary, I assumed combos would work similar to the normal attacks, just that you get to string them together if you're quick enough. This could be done a number of ways. Anyway, I was thinking it as colour more than anything.

[ThreeGee]

Hey Christoffer,

We have been over this before. There are no monsters in Slayer. There are not even any fantasy elements in the basic edition.

I definitely like the idea of counters. How about if the attack misses, the defender automatically advances his initiative, counter-attacking immeditately? If the defender-now-attacker also misses, the original attacker gets one last shot before both roll initiative and play continues. The counter-attack thing cannot go on forever because the other players need to be able to do stuff, too. Does this make Blocking a little more exciting? Characters can be reckless, or they can be more defensive, waiting for the right moment to strike. Seems in-line with the source material to me.

I might not have been clear, but initiative is rolled after every action. A fast character could easily get several actions to a slower character's one. Call that a combo, if you like. Or were you thinking of maybe a +1 Quickness bonus to initiative after the second action, as long as the character is using a pre-determined chain of attacks? Maybe 1 CP per action, with a minimum of three actions.

Food for thought, anyway.

This bit is for everyone--the website has changed: http://gravitypress.indie-rpgs.com/

Later,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

We have been over this before. There are no monsters in Slayer. There are not even any fantasy elements in the basic edition.

The idea was that the opponents were people just like the heroes, right?

But where does this line fit in:

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place?

I guess I don't understand that.

I definitely like the idea of counters. How about if the attack misses, the defender automatically advances his initiative, counter-attacking immeditately?

Yes, that sounds good. But keep in mind that this would mean that being able to counter does not only depend on your ability to block but the opponent's "ability" to miss, so I think that's actually not very useful.

If you want an original take:

* You block and the opponent hits -> Reversal
* You block and the opponent misses -> No Effect (miss)
* Opponent hits, you fail to block -> Got hit
* You fail to block, the opponent misses -> No Effect (miss)

If the defender-now-attacker also misses, the original attacker gets one last shot before both roll initiative and play continues.

Maybe limit things to one attack and one counter-attack is better. And no need for the counter-counter-attack you suggest above.

However, if you change the game in fights which are based on fight exchanges (including combos) this could turn out pretty cool and very fighting game-like.

Does this make Blocking a little more exciting? Characters can be reckless, or they can be more defensive, waiting for the right moment to strike. Seems in-line with the source material to me.

Yeah, it does. But you know, if you don't go with the combo idea (I don't know if the combo idea necessarily is a good one) I'd think blocking is more interesting (and useful) as a passive skill.

I might not have been clear, but initiative is rolled after every action. A fast character could easily get several actions to a slower character's one.

No, that was quite clear. I was more thinking of changing the system so that the game deals with "exchanges" of attacks rather than single attacks. A very simple way of doing combos is to allow a character to attack until he/she misses. However, damage would be approximately the same as for a single attack. It's more that a combo might allow you to stack bonuses and special effects.

It could be done in a lot of different ways. Just some food for thought.

/C

[ThreeGee]

Hey Chris,

I have updated the pdfs with new rules for counters, and I think they add a fun, new dynamic to the game.

Teammates are that: on a team. I have no interest in inter-party politics and hyper-balanced characters, ala Vampire. I want exciting, dynamic characters with very different styles working together against a common threat. As in D&D, most of the opposition should be hordes of mooks. A face NPC should be a real threat.

The stacked combo thing does not make much sense. It would either be horribly unbalanced or pointless because Skill can only be penalized so much. I really am not following you on this one.

Anyway, to prevent the PCs from being taken out of the fight too easily, I am boosting their Star Power from 3 to 5. The most powerful attack is a Power 5 character using an Air Meteor Smash, and it has a Power of 11(!). A more reasonable attack of +3 by a 4 Power attacker still will not KO a 2+ Stamina PC. However, that same attack would KO lesser NPCs.

Also, I have a sample adventure about half-written. I hope to have it done by the weekend.

Later,
Grant

[Christoffer Lernö]

I checked the PDFs but I didn't find the rules about counters?

As for the combos, forget about that idea :). Although I think I visualize it differently from you, I've reached the conclusion (after some thinking) that it wouldn't add anything really.