TROS magic system and spells

[kpike69]

just got my copy of TROS and im in love. I have only one minor hiccup. Im having trouble with the magic system. Spells in paticular. Im wondering if there are any sites or if ppl would be willing to post spells they have created so people  who are having troubles can get a feal for creating there own spells.

[Jake Norwood]

Try this:

Name an effect--any effect--and we'll help you put it together. It'll freak you out when you realize we aren't making it up when we say "anything."

Jake

[Stephen]

Here's one I happen to remember from the Quickstart rules... a neat little spell which, when Formalized (look that entry up in the index), means your sorcerer will be VERY hard to lock up for any length of time....

Lockpicking: Spell of One

Target 1 (inanimate object -- the lock)
Range 1 (touch -- goes up to 2 if you can't touch the lock or some part thereof)
Volume 1 (mass of the bolt or tumblers)
Duration 0
Level 2 (Movement 2: needs full 3D movement and control)

CTN 5 (5 seconds casting time)
(CTN becomes 6 if you can't touch the lock)
(CTN becomes 3 once Formalized, 4 if you can't touch the lock)

Successful casting of this spell allows you to telekinetically manipulate the bolts or tumblers of any lock you can touch -- though depending on how complex the lock mechanics are and how much you know about locks, you may require a separate Skill Roll against Lockpicking to actually undo the mechanism properly!  Also, the spell does not itself disable or immunize you against any traps connected to the lock, and you may or may not be affected by them if you still have to touch the lock (for example, contact poison smeared over the whole lock would still work, but a needle designed to spring from the keyhole and stab your fingers probably wouldn't, as you don't actually have to touch the keyhole).  This spell is most useful for getting past bolted doors and opening windows or latches; the locking mechanisms of Weyrth are fairly primitive.

[Brian Leybourne]

Lockpicking: Spell of One

Hmm.. you know, IMC I wouldn't allow this spell as written.

Lockpicking without being able to see what you're doing requires feedback, as you move each tumbler you can feel the tension as you hold the lock with the second pick (I know a little about it, but not enough to know the correct terms). Since you're not actually using lockpicks, there's no tactile feedback so you're just randomly moving tumblers and hoping something happens, which is about as effective as spinning a combination lock and hoping you get the right combo.

It's an easy fix though, just make it a spell of three and add a vision component so the sorcerer can see what he's doing inside the lock. Then it's easy and only adds minorly to the CTN (but changes the time from seconds into tens of seconds).

Brian.

[Valamir]

I think I like your version better Brian.  But one could argue that one does get feed back from telekenesis in the same manner as you can use it to pick up an egg without crushing it, or pull a lever without snapping it.  There must be some kind of the teletactile feedback to it, ne?

[kpike69]

OK..how would you use lightning as a spell..or control the weather?...

[Stephen]

Lockpicking: Spell of One

Lockpicking without being able to see what you're doing requires feedback, as you move each tumbler you can feel the tension as you hold the lock with the second pick (I know a little about it, but not enough to know the correct terms). Since you're not actually using lockpicks, there's no tactile feedback so you're just randomly moving tumblers and hoping something happens, which is about as effective as spinning a combination lock and hoping you get the right combo.

I think it would be a little easier in Weyrth than you suggest, given that locksmithing is probably a fairly primitive science there; most "locks" would logically simply be bolt-and-eye or hook-and-eye arrangements, which I would argue don't need much in the way of tactile feedback to manipulate.  (For the advanced locks, that's why you need the Lockpicking skill -- to make sense of what the magic is pushing against; as Valamir says, there's no reason we can't assume some kind of tactile feedback in Movement spells.  In fact you'd almost need that kind of feeback to create animation spells.)

[Brian Leybourne]

OK..how would you use lightning as a spell..or control the weather?...

As I understand it, the revised book actually has a lightning spell in it (my original edition doesn't). But lets look at it anyway since I don't know the specifics of that spell.

Admittedly, lightning is a tricky one. However, I would do it with sculpture and movement. Sculpture would allow you to allign the molecules in the air so that they would carry an electric charge along a specified path. Movement would be used (probably requiring Vision as well) to rapidly bash air molecules against each other. This is how lightning is created in nature, the heavier molecules will tend to accumulate a negative charge and the lighter ones a positive charge. Then you just collect the positive charge and touch it to your aligned air molecule "path" and it'll strike the target. That's off the top off my head and pretty rough. There are certainly better ways to hurt somebody if that's your goal.

So, something like this:

T1 (air), R2 (line of sight), V1 (not much needed), D0, T5 (Movement3, Sculpture2, Vision3 = 3+1+1). Subtract 2 for formulisation and you get CTN7, 70 seconds to cast. Spells of three are never fast :-)

Controlling the weather... well, depends on what you're trying to do. It's easy enough to use Sculpture to create rainclouds (or destroy them), or Movement to blow away inclement clouds and weather etc. Heavy wind is easy with Movement. Etc etc.

Brian.

[Brian Leybourne]

Lockpicking: Spell of One

I think it would be a little easier in Weyrth than you suggest, given that locksmithing is probably a fairly primitive science there; most "locks" would logically simply be bolt-and-eye or hook-and-eye arrangements, which I would argue don't need much in the way of tactile feedback to manipulate.  (For the advanced locks, that's why you need the Lockpicking skill -- to make sense of what the magic is pushing against; as Valamir says, there's no reason we can't assume some kind of tactile feedback in Movement spells.  In fact you'd almost need that kind of feeback to create animation spells.)

Yeah, fair call I guess. Hmm.. well, perhaps I would allow the spell if the character was proficient with locks, but I would require the vision component if they weren't.

Fair compromise? :-)

Brian.

[kpike69]

well its all starting to make sense...I guess I just overcomplicated it. question?. summoning says you can summon forces?..just magical ones?.such as mana?..what are kinds of forces fire?...lightning?...some other magic systems such as mage use summoning to cast such spells to summon theses effects?..

[Brian Leybourne]

well its all starting to make sense...I guess I just overcomplicated it. question?. summoning says you can summon forces?..just magical ones?.such as mana?..what are kinds of forces fire?...lightning?...some other magic systems such as mage use summoning to cast such spells to summon theses effects?..

Yeah, that use of the term "forces" is a tad deceptive IMO. Summoning is used to summon demons/spirits (Why? Well, you could create Zombies by summoning a minor spirit and trapping it in a dead body then using movement to let it manipulate the body - this is one of the entries in OBAM actually). The other use of Summoning is to summon magical energy, which is used to maintain spells when you stop concentrating on them. For each level of the duration component you use, you have to add the same level of summoning to fuel that duration. You can even draw that energy directly into yourself, refueling your SP but causing automatic extra aging as your body is stressed.

So no, not for "summoning" fire or lightning or anything like that.

Brian.

[Ben Lehman]

well its all starting to make sense...I guess I just overcomplicated it. question?. summoning says you can summon forces?..just magical ones?.such as mana?..what are kinds of forces fire?...lightning?...some other magic systems such as mage use summoning to cast such spells to summon theses effects?..

Yeah, that use of the term "forces" is a tad deceptive IMO.
(snip)
So no, not for "summoning" fire or lightning or anything like that.

BL>  This has always been a bit of a "bug" in the magic system, at least from my perspective.  I understand that there is no energy summoning in Weyrth, but it is something that is common in fantasy worlds, and something that I would like to be able to replicate using the RoS magic system.  Sadly, the way that my group has done that in the past is to allow "summoning" to also summon energy and "banishment" to be able to destroy it.  Sadly, this makes summoning vastly more powerful than it ought to be, and it is already one of the most powerful vagaries.

Anyone have thoughts on patching this?

yrs--
--Ben

[Brian Leybourne]

Well, one possible balance would be to apply the automatic extra aging to all summoning effects (aging = CTN-successes+the level of summoning vagary used, just like in the Mana spells) instead of just the Mana spells. That way they take a greater aging and greater risk of being knocked out every time they use Summoning in that way.

Have to say though, IMO a better way is not to allow them to use Summoning in that way. Electric charges or heat can be done through the Movement vagary as I showed above, so it's still possible to create energy or fire etc. Similarly, Sculpture could be used to create water or air, etc.

Brian.

[Bob Richter]

Try this:

Name an effect--any effect--and we'll help you put it together. It'll freak you out when you realize we aren't making it up when we say "anything."

Jake

Actually, I'm pretty sure I can stump anyone's command of the magic system in this regard.

I made a Fireball once, but the precedents for it seem to have been removed. :(

But how about making a staff glow with an internal light that illuminates the room?

The closest I've been able to come is a Spell of Three using Vision (to see what's in the room) and Glamour (to make it look like it's being illuminated,) which doesn't ACTUALLY produce the effect, it just LOOKS like it does.

Such a circitous route to such a simple parlour trick.

Why is destroying the universe easier than lighting a room?
:)

[Stephen]

Yeah, fair call I guess. Hmm.. well, perhaps I would allow the spell if the character was proficient with locks, but I would require the vision component if they weren't.

Fair compromise? :-)

Logical, certainly; although it occurs to me that if you've got the Lockpicking skill, what would you need the spell for?  The entire point of using magic is to let you do things you can't otherwise do.

(Answering my own question: it's safer, and lets you work at a distance or without probing the danger zone if you suspect it's trapped, or if you can't get at it, or if you don't have your lockpicks with you....)

So yeah, perhaps this is a fair compromise.

Of course, if you really wanted to do it right, with T1, R1, V1, D0 and L3, -2 for Formalization, you could construct a CTN 4 spell that would, with the merest touch, simply punch the entire lock right out of the frame....

I think I'm getting the hang of TROS sorcery.  ;)