Combat..

[prophet118]

Hi Prophet,

So how would you compensate for the different distribution of margin results between the single die system and the dice pool system.  More details please.

well here goes nothing... i havent actually worked on this just yet, but im willing to give it a go... as i said, manuvers still count against you, as does anything else in the base system that hurts you CP wise... heavy armor, defaulting to another weapon.... ETC

perhaps something to this effect...

6 easy
9 average
12 difficult
17 very difficult
18 heroic
23 near impossible
27 woh.

now obviously the roll is a single D10 plus a number, however the die is open ended.....since i would be using the Rune die system... it would be as such

1D10 + appropriate numbers (depend on task) if a 10 is rolled, roll again, add it to your result....if a 1 is rolled, roll again, that takes away from your result........ id have to look at the system to see what id like to do for defense, however the Rune system uses an opposed attack roll, against a non static defense..... where the defender rolls their defense along with your attack, that may mean the defender gets a pretty shitty roll, or that may mean they get an awesome roll....i do see that this roll would be modified in the same way that the combat attack stuff is modified (IE, restrictive armor, anything that would lower their CP normally)

[prophet118]

I see, you are running it using the Dark Sun setting.

yes, though the game itself would remain a whole... (note i didnt say system stuff)... basically there wouldnt be any gods or anything, and i wont have any clerics as npcs, im probably not even going to tell them right off that its either TROS or Dark Sun....i simply called the game "The Riddle of the Dark Sun"

[Valamir]

Can you give some idea of what you're trying to accomplish with this?  You say you don't have a problem with die pool systems, but you obviously have some problem with the die pool system of TROS.  Further, rather than try to fix the problem with the die pool, you're electing to scrap the pool in favor of single die resolution, which suggests there's something you REALLY don't like about the current system.

But without some idea of what that is, there is no way to tell whether your proposal fixes it.

But as Alan asked above, echoing my earlier sentiments...what about TROS are you trying to salvage.

You scrapped the world in favor of Dark Sun.
You scrapped the dice mechanics in favor of a single die system.
What are you keeping from TROS at all?  The SA's...Maneuvers...Sorcery?

[prophet118]

Can you give some idea of what you're trying to accomplish with this?  You say you don't have a problem with die pool systems, but you obviously have some problem with the die pool system of TROS.  Further, rather than try to fix the problem with the die pool, you're electing to scrap the pool in favor of single die resolution, which suggests there's something you REALLY don't like about the current system.

But without some idea of what that is, there is no way to tell whether your proposal fixes it.

But as Alan asked above, echoing my earlier sentiments...what about TROS are you trying to salvage.

You scrapped the world in favor of Dark Sun.
You scrapped the dice mechanics in favor of a single die system.
What are you keeping from TROS at all?  The SA's...Maneuvers...Sorcery?

im almost tempted to not even reply to you, not after your first reply to me... however i think you just had too much caffeine.

so what do i hope to acheive... hmmm... mayhaps a system that i can run, and not have to have every player buy the book, mayhaps something where a new player can pick up the system without a 4 hour lecture... mayhaps nothing.

what am i keeping from TROS... hmmm... well everything except the die system, and the world.....why are you so opposed to this?

[prophet118]

i had also gotten the idea a few minutes ago, of not changing the system entirely, just altering, mainly when i thought about sorcery

what would you guys think of a system of pluses..... basically put, if i have a 15 combat pool, you would decide how much of that bonus to use, still allowing for mulitple exchanges, though you would "use" up the parts you had chosen as the bonus..sure maybe a bit too mathmatical, but i see it working definately for sorcery

[Amy1419]

what am i keeping from TROS... hmmm... well everything except the die system, and the world.....why are you so opposed to this?

It does seem kinda odd to me that anyone would go through so much work without designing their own game.
Do whatever you like with the system, obviously you will without anyone's approval which you should, I just think that people love TROS so much (me included) that they we don't understand why anyone would change anything about it!

[prophet118]

It does seem kinda odd to me that anyone would go through so much work without designing their own game.
Do whatever you like with the system, obviously you will without anyone's approval which you should, I just think that people love TROS so much (me included) that they we don't understand why anyone would change anything about it!

because, maybe some people arent happy with things "as they are".... come on, jake gave us the game, to do with it as we want,.... maybe im just reading too much into that....

[Alan]

Hi Prophet,

So how would you compensate for the different distribution of margin results between the single die system and the dice pool system.  More details please.

perhaps something to this effect...

6 easy
9 average
12 difficult
17 very difficult
18 heroic
23 near impossible
27 woh.

now obviously the roll is a single D10 plus a number, however the die is open ended.....since i would be using the Rune die system... it would be as such

Okay, so how do you determine Wound Level from this?

[prophet118]

Okay, so how do you determine Wound Level from this?

very descent question, as i had to refresh myself with the standard way, which (unless i missed something), was simple strength, plus the rating of the weapon, plus whatever margin..... which was based on the number of successes... Rune does this as well...... however Rune is alot bloodier than TROS, so id probably have to scale some things back a little...

however....... the base system still work......since they are still rolling something to defend with, your margin may only be a little bit, so if your margin is say 9, plus str (lets go with 4), and your weapon allowed for stre +1, you would hit with 14.....however were i to use the method i just mentioned (the bonuses thing)....... the only thing that would change from the base system, is the number of dice you roll..

[Valamir]

Sorry Proph...but I still can't see where you're going.  Can you put a damper on the stream of conciousness posts and just answer the question please.

What is broken with the current system in your view that you are trying to fix.  You have some vague ramblings about 4 hour lectures and players who won't buy the book, but what does this mean?  You think the game is mechanically complicated and you're trying to make it simpler?  What specific aspects are complicated?  At its core TROS is one of the more mechanically SIMPLE systems out there.  

Please list what elements of the system you're finding difficult and how your proposed solution will help address that...because I'm not seeing what shifting from "choose number of dice to roll" to "choose number to add to a die roll" accomplishes.

As for what are you keeping...I'll ask that again because your answer "everything else" is pretty unhelpful.  There are 3 things that define Riddle of Steel as a game.  The combat system, the SA system, and the magic system.  Of those the magic system is the least important.  

Everything else, while it works quite well, is not all that different from a dozen other RPGs out there.  Attributes, skills, skill packages, all perfectly functional...but if these are the elements you're striving to keep I'm at a loss...because they are present in just as good form elsewhere.  In other words, it hardly seems worth while to struggle to rewrite a system just so you can use TROS's 10 attributes, handful of skill packages, and a few gifts and flaws.  You can get those things anywhere.

What is it specifically about TROS that is unique to TROS that you can't get simply by playing a different game, that you are trying to salvage?

[Mike Holmes]

because, maybe some people arent happy with things "as they are".... come on, jake gave us the game, to do with it as we want,.... maybe im just reading too much into that....

I think you very much misinterperet Ralph's concern. You can, of course, do whatever you like with the game. How could Ralph or anyone else stop you?

But it just seems like for all the effort you're putting into the game that, well, you very much are designing a whole new game (as Amy puts it). I mean saying that you're using TROS but not using the combat system is like saying that you're building a Ferrari Testarosa but not using the V12 exoticar engine. Well, it'll look like a Ferrari, but it won't run like one.

That said, it's also fine to build your own game. But what does it have to do with TROS at that point? You might be better served taking it over to the Design forum. It's axiomatic that modifying a game heavily is a sure way to break it, and when you get to a certain point you're just better off designing from the ground up. For example, maybe you can also devise a character generation system that's more suitable for what you want. Certainly TROS social rules don't really fit the Dark Sun universe, for example.

Or, perhaps you can find a game that fits the bill for you without any redesign at all. Have you seen Zenobia, for example? It has dice pool exchanges that don't involve any more tactics than most other games, but deliver results that are somewhat like TROS's. Very simple and easy to learn, and you can download the rules for free making as many copies as you may need.

Mike

*Edited to note that I cross-posted with Ralph.

[prophet118]

yeh.. guess you guys are right, instead of bringing the fun of TROS to the masses, i should just drop the game entirely, thanks for helping me see the light.

[Brian Leybourne]

yeh.. guess you guys are right, instead of bringing the fun of TROS to the masses, i should just drop the game entirely, thanks for helping me see the light.

You're getting quite defensive Prophet, I seriously don't think Ralph and Mike are mocking you. They're just asking questions to try to draw you out to talk about your ideas more. Remember that the written (well, typed) word doesn't carry inflections of voice or face, so it's more easy to misunderstand the tone of a comment than it would be if everyone was sitting around a coffee house having this conversation.

For myself, although this may sound flippant, I'm a little confused as to how you would be bringing TROS to the masses with a meshed together system using Dark Sun, Rune, Ars Magica and some elements of TROS that I can't quite make out (not Combat or the Setting, perhaps you're just keeping the SA's and Skill System? I'm not sure, you have not been clear as to what you like). If you sell this system to people at a Con and call it TROS, they're not going to have been given a fair introduction to the game, are they?

Brian.

[prophet118]

but ask yourself brian, whos mocking who... i felt my comment was best left as is, with tongue firmly placed in cheek... but thats just me i guess.  I'll probably use the Rune system for the game anyway, no sense in changing "so" much of TROS, i'l just start using it as a sourcebook, it'll get demoted to the same status as star wars d6, and my old AD&D books...thats ok though, they still serve a purpose

[Ashren Va'Hale]

wha? Ok, I am jumping into this late, but perhaps as  a 3rd party observer I can note that these people aren't arguing with you prophet, you are reading tone into a post, difficult at best, risky at worse. What people want to know in order to respond apropriately is what about TROS you like specifically, and what specifically causes you problems. From that what would you want to keep, modify and throw out becomes clear and what suggestions we should offer becomes more apparent.

I doubt there was any malice involved.

So what works for your group? what doesn't? and why would that be the case? To complex, to steep a learning curve, necessity of paper work?
Let us know so we can offer decent advice.